How do you toilet train a toddler with speech delay and possible SEND

[NC2125]

I’m at my wits end. Please do not judge.

My son has speech delay, awaiting autism assessment and will be starting school in September where he has to be toilet trained. I’ve tried and tried but he doesn’t understand it.. there’ll be wee all
over the floor. At home I take his nappy off and ask him to go toilet every 15-20 minutes. In nursery he has started going without a nappy and he’ll wee himself and not tell the staff. When he sits on the toilet he doesn’t point his penis down so there’ll be wee on him and the floor (that’s what the nursery staff said).

I’m
at my wits end and don’t know what to do now. Please advice.

What were your reasons for wanting mainstream? If the school insists that they have to be toilet trained regardless of SEN, you could ask for a reconsideration on the grounds that the school can’t meet need, however there may well be no SEN places available as there are so many children needing them.

Ignore the school. DS can still attend even if he isn’t toilet trained.

It isn’t too late for a special school, but you need an EHCP. Some LAs have specialist early years assessment placements for those who are going through or need to go through the EHCNA process, but even if you LA has such places, it is unlikely DS will be given one at this point.

For getting the extra funding he just stayed at the same preschool and they knew what to do. It was just one extra form IIRC. For changing nappies I believe most schools would have a TA/LSA in year R who could help with that if needed.

Ask the nursery to start the Sen assessment process. Ask the school about delaying his start? Has the YR teacher seen him yet in nursery? They should visit. Look at LA website regarding delaying his start. You cannot just apply for a special school but you must start sen assessment and his EHCP plan might agree he needs one. However you need to take action regarding his education and sen assessment. I’m amazed the nursery hasn’t mentioned this. It’s their job!

@MeetMeOnTheCorner the teacher will come to see him in nursery in 2 weeks.

The nursery has never mentioned SEN assessment.They have never really mentioned anything other than doing the monthly reviews on him.
SALT has referred to a pediatrician for an autism assessment but she said it normally takes 18-24 months to be seen.
Who can refer for a SEN assessment, GP?

You need to apply for the ehcpna yourself as soon as possible. Ipsea have template letters and various guides to help you understand the process and timeframes.

The threshold for a needs assessment is very low; may have sen and requires an ehcp to meet need. Your son meets this threshold from what you've written. The LA may decline to assess which you appeal.

When they assess state that he is waiting for an autism assessment and the LA cannot meet there statutory obligations of detailing all sen and provision to meet them if the autism assessment isn't completed (so that it has to be done within the timeframes of the ehcpna). Also state that due to his presentation it is reasonable for you to request a speech therapy and ot assessment as part of the ehcpna (and any other assessments he requires/ that you have evidence to suggest he needs).

Sossen and ipsea are your friends here, use them. They have great information on their websites and helplines.

The LA is likely not your friend- all LA's are broke and sen costs money. Many la's delay where they can and aren't always forthcoming with information.

You are likely to be doing this sort of thing for many years. It isn't easy but you'll get there. Don't put things off or wait for others to do things for you that you can do like requesting the needs assessment.

For the EHCNA, you don’t need to prove DS requires an EHCP. Only that it may be necessary.

While LAs must seek advice and information during the EHCNA from everyone stated in Regulation 6 of The Special Educational Needs and Disability Regulations 2014, a full diagnostic ASD assessment is unlikely.

The nursery really should have guided the op in my view. They must know he needs extra help and advise the Op on what to do.

They can't meet their statutory obligations if they don't, by stating this early she will get evidence for sendist to order one if they don't, if they do at the very least she gets an earlier autism assessment for her son.

Yes you are correct in that i didn't quote the regs fully in re to ehcpna, the point stands that her child likely meets the threshold and she can put in for the ehcpna herself, saving her some time.

LAs regularly don’t meet their statutory obligations. They are also likely to argue, as they often do, a full diagnostic ASD anssessment isn’t part of the Regs. If OP has to appeal refusal to issue or content, she can request SENDIST directs the LA to seek further advice and information, but SENDIST doesn’t always agree to do so.

@NC2125 which LA are you under? If you'd rather PM me, do that. Different LAs have different systems to start the process of EHC Needs Assessment, so if you can tell us/me which LA, we can give you the exact place to go.

There are a few things you need to know:

1. Nobody is going to work as hard for your DS as you. Don't let other people control the EHCP process - you need to apply yourself.

2. If he is May born you can defer his entry to school but that doesn't mean that it's the best thing for every child.

3.The school can't insist that he's toilet trained, nor can they refuse to deal with him.

4.Support isn't dependent on diagnosis. It doesn't matter that you don't have a solid answer for why he's behind, they need to meet his needs.

5. Most special school places will be full now for this year because they were allocated in February. It isn't impossible to get a special school place but it's unlikely that you'll get one this year.

The basic process for an EHCP is this:

1. You ask for a needs assessment

2. The LA has 6 weeks to decide if your child meets the criteria [a) the child has or may have SEN b) the child may need provision from an EHCP] and to tell you their decision, giving you the right to appeal if they refuse to assess.

3. If they agree to assess, they have 6 weeks to assess your child. They must consult you, his current setting, and an Educational Psychologist. If you've already had SALT involvement, they will ask for their advice, and they may ask for OT advice.

4. By week 12, they must have all the information they need to decide whether to issue a plan, and if so, they have two weeks to write a draft plan.

5. By week 14 they must issue a draft EHCP, or inform you that they won't be issuing a plan and give reasons, giving you the right of appeal if they refuse to issue a plan.

6. You get a minimum of 15 days to look at the draft and make comments on it. You also get to name a preferred school. They have to name that school unless it is unsuitable for your child's age, ability, aptitude, or special educational needs (SEN); Incompatible with efficient education of others: Your child's attendance would negatively impact the education of other children, and there are no "reasonable steps" the school or local authority can take to prevent this; Incompatible with efficient use of resources: Placing your child would result in an unjustifiable or disproportionate misuse of financial and administrative resources.

7. If they agree with your preference, they will consult with that school. If they disagree, they will consult with the school you have named and others who they think are suitable. Those schools will tell them whether they think they can meet needs.

8. Between weeks 17 and 20 (and no later than week 20) they must issue the final plan, naming the school he will go to, giving you the right of appeal if they haven't named the school you think is right for him, or you disagree with the contents of the EHCP.

In practice, if you applied today, you'd get a Final EHCP on 14th September. So you need to get going. I would be urging you to apply today because that will trigger the above timeline.

If you see my earlier post you see i'm fully aware that LA's don't meet their stat obligations.

Assessing all sen is part of the regs whether that is dyspraxia, autism, adhd or other. Making that point does make sendist inclined to order.

Not pointing that out because they may not do it or sendist may not order it which from experience is unlikely is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Asking for assessments which are reasonable as this is why parents ad carers have this right.

Why would you advise op to not request something which may help her and her child?

You listen to this poster.

you fight fight and fight.

you do not take no for an answer.

you take the process in your own hands

and you do not stress yourself. Your child is not potty trained then so WHAT! Neither is mine and going to reception in September. Finally on the pathway for a referral. You have done all you can to try and potty trained your child but at the end of the day children who have any neurodiversity, physical needs etc do not need to fit into the primaries of children who have no extra things to deal with.

you are amazing. Do not forget that! Wishing all the strength to you. Us mamas know what’s best, know are child the best and know damn well we will fight for them.

Is this a private school? I believe insisting on being toilet trained is against disability regulations. My son is four, not much speech and likely autistic. He is on the waiting list for assessment. We will have an attempt during the summer holidays but I can't see it working. Not once have they said he can't start the mainstream school he is attending. Really fight this.

Thank you, but I defer in every case to @scoopofmintchocchipicecream who has assisted thousands of parents with these matters. My knowledge comes from my experience of having children with EHCPs, being a school governor across mainstream and special schools, and knowing the SEN Code of Practice. But I benefit from the support and advice of @scoopofmintchocchipicecream on a daily (and sometimes hourly!) basis.

Can you quote exactly where I advised OP not to ask for something that will help? You won’t be able to because I haven’t advised her not to ask. I have simply pointed out it is unlikely, because it is. That isn’t cutting my nose off to spite my face. I have doing this day in, day out for many years. It actually isn’t that common for SENDIST to Order the LA undertakes a diagnostic ASD assessment even when parents request they do.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU everyone 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

@Lougle I live in the West Midlands, I will contact the local authority.

Thank you everyone once again for the advice, support and help.

OP doesn’t need to use her LA’s form or process to request an EHCNA. IPSEA’s model letter, or any other model letter she wants to use or a request in other ways, will suffice.

Even if OP’s DS hasn’t had SALT involvement, the OP can still request they seek advice and information. Not known to service is not a lawful response.

If the LA isn’t going to issue they must inform her by week 16 rather than 14.

If the LA is going to issue, unless the OP’s preferred school is wholly independent, the LA should consult the school even if the LA disagrees and doesn’t go no to name them. She can still request they consult with independent schools, but there isn’t the same duties.

It isn’t uncommon for LAs to begin consults before parents respond to the draft. It is one of the reasons it is important parents ensure schools who have been consulted have an accurate picture.

Depending on when the OP submits an EHCNA request, one of the exceptions where it is impractical for the LA to comply with the timescales may apply. Although that isn’t the green light for the LA to do as they wish. They must comply as soon as practicable.

I think you are missing the point, somewhat. The LA have a responsibility to assess the educational needs of a child. They don't have to identify the medical cause of those needs. If a child can't hear, it actually doesn't matter, educationally, whether they have a problem with conduction, or a sensorineural deficit. The educational need is that they won't hear the teacher/class talking.

They don't have to identify that ASD is the cause of speech delay, need for routine, sensory difficulties, etc., They have to identify what areas of learning are impacted, how they present (speech delay, need for routine, sensory difficulties, etc.,) what impact on the child's learning, and what provision is needed to overcome or reduce it.

For that reason, it's unlikely that the LA will commission a private ASD assessment, and they have no influence on medical waiting lists. They may, however, commission private OT/SALT reports if the NHS waiting times are too long, because they will directly inform them of the needs of the child and it's impact on their learning.

Whether assessment starts or not it’s normal for the school to know about these difficulties and not refuse entry. I’d defer entry and get assessment in train.

@scoopofmintchocchipicecream I know she doesn't have to use the form, etc., but OP seems quite overwhelmed and I thought it might be easiest for her to know the quickest way to access the EHC portal.

I understand that and am aware. With autism in particular, it can present as i'm sure you're aware very differently from person to person. The assessment can highlight areas of need which aren't covered by ot/ salt/ ep assesments that the la commision for the ehcpna. This is something i was trained to advise by one of the big sen charities.

Op, i'm gonna back away because arguing over who gives the best advice doesn't help you. I do argree wholeheartedly that you need to request the ehcpna yourself asap as i've written previously.

In regards to everything else use ipsea and sossen. They are great sources of info. Best of luck!

@Lougle Yes, and the nursery should be looking at how this impacts on learning regarding the EY curriculum. I find it odd they haven’t.

I didn’t say not to ask. Hence you not being able to quote where I said not to. I was merely pointing out it is unlikely during the EHCNA (and my original point was specifically mentioning during the EHCNA, not during the Tribunal process) because it is.

I think the main take away from this thread is that toilet training is the least of @NC2125's worries and she needs to insist on appropriate assessment and support.