Advice on clear and immediate consequences for 3yo challenging behaviour?

[S1nglemum1]

Ds is 3.5 and on the whole he's a really good kid and I'm very lucky with how easy going he is.

However he's having a run recently of really challenging behaviour. In the past I've been able to nip this in the bud using things like stories (he loves to read) as a consequence (eg if you continue xyz there will be no story at bedtime tonight.)

However at the moment it's like he's just pushing the boundary to see what will happen next and what I'll do. So he'll say fine no books, etc and then I'm kind of left on a limb frustrated, having to follow through but also knowing he doesn't care so it's been an inadequate consequence.

I always try to be clear and gentle but firm and always try to keep my cool and keep it age appropriate but as a lone parent I only have so much in the tank and so I need to be on top of his behaviour so things never get the chance to escalate.

I always reinforce and praise positive behaviour and we get lots of time outside and away from screens etc and like I said on the whole he's a great child all round but I just am at a bit of a loss with where to go with this recent boundary pushing.

I've been resorting to 3 minute time outs but I know they're not recommended now. My other frustration is at bedtime he's withholding his 💩 in order to have a reason to repeatedly get out of bed so bedtimes are now taking 2 hrs instead of the usual 30 minutes and I'm not sure what else to do to encourage him to go before he gets into bed when I know he needs to.

Any advice?

Hopeful bump. I'm 3hrs into the worst bedtime we've ever had and absolutely done in.

i think taking away the bed time story is just too far away from the behaviour to be effective. But honestly, at 3 I wouldn’t use any consequences really unless they were the natural consequence of their behaviour (leaving a shop because of a tantrum for example) What’s he doing?

Bed time sounds so tough. You could get a step for his feet and some bubbles to blow on the loo. This position will help him go and make it harder to withhold.

He's spitting, slapping, unkind words, kicking, refusing to go to bed or do anything he's asked and deliberately doing things he's not allowed to do (because they are unsafe) in order to try to provoke a reaction.

I'm trying to stay calm and not give any real reaction but I also feel like there needs to be a consequence of some description as his behaviour tonight in particular has been really awful.

I've got him to do belly breathing and hit his pillow and stamp his feet and that's great and works for all of 2 minutes and then he's back to square one and lashing out again.

Its not even quite a tantrum, it's swinging between a bit of angry and then he thinks it's funny and is treating it like a game. I've tried ignoring altogether at that point but then he does something unsafe and I have to intervene again which he finds funny

I'm very aware he sounds awful and honestly he's normally the sweetest child and really well behaved and polite usually he's just going through a really challenging phase from his normal self.

No advice but solidarity. I just posted about my 3 year old DD, really struggling with her behaviour at the moment at bedtime. Constantly pushing boundaries. It's exhausting 😮‍💨

My middle child was very similar at bedtime. Woeful. I still think consequences don’t work well at this age. It just becomes a power stugggle. I used to do things like I know you don’t want to go to bed but it’s bedtime and we are staying in your room. He’d get overtired.

How to talk so little kids will listen book was a big help.

If it’s any consolation he’s 10 now and goes up to bed by himself no bother now. Reads a book before bed quite late. So not an early sleeper!

Yeah over tired is definitely a possible cause though he's also having the same type of boundaries pushing in the mornings (refusal to get dressed, brush teeth, put shoes on) to the point where I'm running late because it's such a battle and is just a horrible start to the day. And sometimes randomly at weekends so I don't think it's just about him being tired or not tired I think he's also trying to push me to see what happens next.

He's going through a phase of becoming quite aware that other kids in nursery have their dads involved and he talks a lot about that at the moment so I know he's trying to process something there and he'll say it makes him feel sad or angry that he doesn't see his dad but he's too little to articulate that much. So i also don't know if the recent behaviour issues are part of that processing. I got him lots of books about different types of families etc and always give him space to talk that through. He's bringing it up very repetitively which I know can just be part of processing at that age but I guess I worry there might be more he's struggling with that he can't articulate.

My son had a similar phase and think it is very normal. They are testing the boundaries to establish where they are and if they are movable.

I would do two things: clearly describe the boundary, and set a consequence that can be enacted immediately, and isn't so bad you don't want to do it. (Threatening to quarantine favourite toys in the cellar has worked for me).Then, count down slowly from Five, Four, Three, etc.

If they know you will follow through they will always start obeying before you hit zero, so long as you give enough time to process the consequences - so take plenty of time over the countdown. Don't raise your voice or rise to the provocation.

Good luck!

This used to work and is what we've done to date but now I say if you don't x by the time I count to 5 y will happen and he just doesn't care. Its like he wants to see how far he can push it. So I've ended up having to remove favourite toys, books etc and the behaviour just continues. In those moments he absolutely doesn't care about the consequence then eventually it'll hit home and then he'll lash out even more because he's upset and angry things have been removed. So it feels like I'm escalating the situation rather than dealing with it. Sometimes I'll change tactic and I'll try to regulate him but it's like he's in a scorched earth headspace and just doesn't care. And that's the bit I find hardest to handle. It's like he wants a reaction so the consequence being carried out is the reaction he wants.

We had/have this too and you just have to keep refining your system and consequences until it works for everyone.
In our case, I moved dinner time, getting ready for bed and everything else to as early as practically possible, and just had a kind of escalating ladder, so first ask nicely, then give a countdown with an explanation what they have to do and what will happen if you get to zero, then count, then after the 10 second or whatever at least you will be calm, then physically do whatever it is eg put them on the toilet or undress them.
Then for the reading thing you can say if they are physically in bed by eg 6.30 you will read together for 15 minutes, otherwise you'll check on them but not read together. Then that cuts any incentive to string things out.
But in reality it isn't a magic wand, but the good(?) thing is that he messes around it's him that misses reading, breakfast, story time rather than me getting stressed. It's been a long road though, good luck!

If the punishment does “hit home” you might want to try slowing down the warning and then counting. You might be doing it so fast (even if it already feels slow to you) he is not able to process and work out the right answer.

I’m not sure what you mean by regulate but your post reads a bit like your reactions may come across to him as inconsistent and I’d try to avoid that if that is the case.

To avoid having to continuously use a threat I would try being creative with games and distractions (can we get dressed before the end of our favourite song etc). He will grow out of it so don’t lose hope!

For things like dressing I’d ask him to get dressed, one reminder and then I’d dress him, brush his teeth myself. He has the choice to do it independently or I’ll do it for him.

Bed time is more tricky but I’d start the process early, so after dinner everything would be aimed at getting him ready to settle down. So no tv, maybe a board game if that doesn’t ain’t him up, bath, pjs etc. The hitting and lashing out would be a very stern telling off, I used to use “time in” with my two - so they’d be doing something boring with me - folding laundry, wiping down the bathroom, whatever chore I needed to get on with. That gave them time to process without the pressure of talking about it while also having my attention. The book 1 2 3 Magic was also good in breaking down requests with a process to move them through the task.

It helped with mine to try to explain energy.

As in… if we throw all the toys all over the floor. And mummy has to tidy them all up. Then thats using a lot of her energy and afterwards shes going to be tired and is going to want to sit down. Not get more toys out to play.

Or.. When I have to ask over and over and over or even shout to get you out the door then thats makes mummy’s voice tired. Then it’s hard to have these big car chats.

You really need to be consistent with it though. It only works after when everyone is calm and you have moved on so to speak.

Also a very tricky concept for them and may require some diagram drawing of the energy disappearing.

For really awful behaviour we do also go to consequences/ time outs.

For my very naughty DS at that age (he's an angel now at 5), I was both the reward and the punishment. So if he could behave, I'd stay with him/spend time with him. If he couldn't, I just left immediately and ignored any bad behaviour unless it was really unsafe. He hated it, but quickly learned that the bad behaviour got no attention.

I coupled that with loads of effusive love and praise. And I would say lots of stuff like "I love playing with you, but I don't want to play with someone who hits me" to make the link clear. And I gave him lots of chances to "get out of it" when he was being naughty, because sometimes he got stuck in it and couldn't really work out how to move on. So I'd keep it light and breezy and say something to move it on quickly with no fuss.

It all depends why your DS is acting up, though. My little lad just wanted attention mainly, and I think to feel secure knowing that I still loved him and liked him even if he'd been naughty.

My just turned 4yo is behaving like this at the moment too. We had a relatively chilled 3yo but in the months leading up to his bday his behaviour started to change and now we see loads of boundary pushing and escalating behaviours.

I'm re-reading how to talk so little kids will listen, and the book you wish your parents had read. Consequences don't seem to really work at the moment, they just make him more mad. I'm also trying to massively pick my battles, because the fewer arbitrary boundaries he has to push against, the fewer big blow ups we will hopefully see.

When he really loses the plot I do physically move him into his room and sit with him til he calms down. No talking, but also not doing anything else like scrolling. Just being present and calm, protecting myself if he lashes out, and otherwise waiting it out. I hope it's just a developmental phase and we'll see it calm down again soon.

A firm no, remove from situation. When calm explain why behaviour not acceptable

I am not sure why time out is considered so bad. At this age, I always felt it was a bit like training a dog - they can't be reasoned with, they're not mature enough, so you literally just have ot train them to instinctively not do whatever it. When Ds was 2 he went through a phase of hitting a lot. Every single time, he was picked up, and put on the step. No shouting, no drama. Just put there. I feel like over a period of two weeks it was 400 times a day. But then he stopped because I guess he just got bored of being put on the step. [shrug]

The bed time thing is harder. Avoiding bed time is a real problem and also something DS was a master at. Part of it for us was no attention. Fine, if he wants to get up and go to the toilet, great. We're not hanging out with him, no screen while he's doing it etc etc. Then back to bed.

Your DS is very young and this is all common behaviour but I will also say that we have subsequently found that DS has ADHD. The bedtime shenanigans in particular were, in retrospect, a bit clue! He still struggles with sleep but now as a strapping 15 year old who wants to do better at school and does a lot of exercise, he WANTS to sleep so is proactive in helping to figure out solutions vs when he was younger and didn't want to sleep.

Yeah I'm not quite sure what the root cause of it is. He generally is actually a very good sleeper and up to now would go to bed like a dream every night and we've a very consistent routine around bedtime. It feels like he's doing everything possible to kick bedtime down the road and then in the process goes past himself and then gets irritable and lashes out.

When he does something I'll name the behaviour tell him he's not allowed to do that and why, if he does it again I'll tell him this is your first warning and if you do that again xyz will happen and then if he does it again I'll follow through on what I've threatened. Usually that's served me well but lately it's not enough and he'll just push on and on. Last night he had 3 separate time outs before I could get him to actually stay in bed and I feel awful because it's just such a horrible note for him to be going to bed on but nothing else was working. If u ignore him he'll do something he knows he's really not allowed to do (because dangerous) so I have no choice but to intervene in the most low interaction way possible. It does feel like attention and wanting to continue play time more than anything else because I know he's tired.

He doesn't get screen time during the week except what they put on at nursery and our evenings are deliberately quite chill, low lighting etc in bedroom before he goes in couple of bedtime stories bath etc and plenty of connection time so in theory he should be well wound down by that stage and honestly it's like everything is set, he's ready to sleep and then it's "I just need the toilet" and I have a nightmare getting him back into bed after that. Tonight I just said no because there had been so much messing about the past few nights (I knew he didn't actually need to go because he'd just been 10min before) and that seemed to work much better and he went to sleep with minimal messing about.

Time out is fine but it does need to be used properly. The idea that the punishment has to be related to the "crime" can be counterproductive because it means you're constantly having to think up specific ideas in the moment and when you're feeling frustrated, irritated or angry then you're more likely to make the punishment more harsh, which is ineffective and comes with more downsides. If you can think up a related punishment in advance and it makes sense (e.g. aggression when coming off game = no game tomorrow) then that's fine and sometimes it's more effective than an unrelated thing. But for most things you don't necessarily need something that is related.

To use time out properly it means that you give a warning and then take the child calmly to the place - don't march or drag them there*. The warning could be specific or it could be a countdown.

No lectures or shouting, but do calmly explain why they are in time out in as few words as possible. Don't engage with attempts at conversation. Keep it short, no more than 1 min per year of age (consider halving this if child has ADHD). It's supposed to be boring, not overly shaming/humiliating so personally I'm not keen on names like naughty step/bench/chair etc but TBH this is probably a minor detail.

*Some sources recommend that you don't physically touch them at all, but if they don't comply with the time out, a different punishment is given such as removal of toy/privileges (again predecided). I find this a bit roundabout personally, and would just use the other punishment if you frequently have issues with time out. (DS2 I can't use time out with because it escalates into a meltdown, but DS3 it works fine).

Personally, I do not use time out to enforce demands that I make because I feel uncomfortable about this. (ie, I would not say "Put on your shoes/tidy up this thing or go in time out".) However, I will use it for things like physical aggression or behaviour that is destructive, and I find it much quicker at getting the point across than anything else.

The other major thing to understand about time out or any punishment at all really is that it will not directly teach anything. All it's doing is interrupting the behaviour and making it really clear what your line is. What actually changes behaviour is looking at the root cause, and support of the positive, replacement behaviour. Which might involve building skills, incentivising this behaviour, adding environmental support etc and the last one is the most important - looking at where you are now and where you ideally want them to be, and rather than expect them to transform their behaviour overnight, think up a path of steps from the current behaviour to the wanted behaviour, and look at how you can get them to the first step - and always make the steps smaller rather than increasing a punishment.

My DC are always horrendous behaviour wise when they need to poo. We started adding "sit on toilet for 5 mins" to the bedtime routine so they get at least 1x guaranteed good go of it once every 24 hours. But if it doesn't work at bedtime for you it might work better at a different time of day. Do see the GP if it is very bad though as he might be very constipated. Or perhaps first just try to get lots of fibre into his meals?

And DS3 (4.5) has been very worried recently about having bad dreams. We have been sprinkling pretend magic sand on him at bedtime to give him better dreams and it does help. See if you can work out why he's looking for reassurance/presence at bedtime and if you can address that, hopefully he'll stop the games and start to fall asleep earlier. Or would he go to sleep with you there? That's what I used to do for DS1, he fell asleep much quicker if I just stayed. He didn't need it forever.

TBH your description of his behaviour currently sounds very much like dysregulation in which case time out probably won't even help. You can't co-regulate your way out of the combo of insufficient sleep and physical discomfort caused by having a massive poo stored up. Sorting the poo thing almost definitely will help, trying not to give the behaviour too much attention, say no when you think it's a play at night time, and keeping him busy with challenges and other brain stimulation when you need him to cooperate with something.

My eldest also did not see his dad and had a lot of questions and wanted to talk a lot about families at that age. It is very normal and it's a good, healthy thing for him to be curious and want to process it. Remember that it's an adult idea that it's somehow "lesser" to not have a dad. To him he probably sees it no different to how some DC in the class have a sister and some don't, some children have a grandma and some don't, some children have a pet dog and some don't. If you have pictures of his dad and you feel comfortable, you could make him up his own little photo album he can look at, it can also help to get a book or a few about different family set ups. I think books are great for this age because it's hard for them to say or even conceptualise that they want to talk about things, but they can easily pick a book off a shelf at bedtime about something they want to talk about.

DS1 is 17 now and not having a dad has never been an issue for him at all. Yes he has a stepdad, but I honestly don't think it would have made a difference if he hadn't. Don't stress - this is a very normal age for difficult behaviour and it will get easier.

In fact thinking about it, DS1 was about 3.5 when he said of my now-DH "He's like a Mummy... but he's a man!" and he wasn't even that involved in his life.

The word "Daddy" for him did not even occur to him to put in that space because to him "Daddy" was that man you haven't seen for half your life and can barely even remember what he looks like.

I know the whole thing really upset my XMIL and I felt horrendously guilty about it at times but OTOH I don't ever think he meant it in a bad way. He was just figuring it all out and making sense of it in his 3yo way.

@BertieBotts thank you for this, lots of good food for thought there and it's reassuring not to feel alone with it!

I generally try to be quite playful in my approach as a first port of call so if he doesn't want to get dressed for example I'll make it a silly game, and I make a point to highlight and praise him for really good behaviour and tell other people in front of him what a great job he did of xyz because I know he really feels proud of himself for that. I try to reserve time outs really just for when he's physically lashing out and the behaviour has gone past the point where anything else is working and when he's not just upset as such. If I think he's upset internally I'll try to calm everything down and we'll do breath work or something to try to regulate him as a first port of call. The time outs come in when he's lashing out/ doing something dangerous or hurtful and treating it like its a game laughing even after warnings and being told clearly and firmly to stop etc.

The poo issue seems to be stemming from nursery as he won't let anyone check that his bum is clean there and while we're working on him being able to wipe his own bum at home, he's nowhere near at the point where he can do it without an adult supporting him. So he was coming home every day in filthy pants and I had to speak to the nursery to ask them to support him more with that and now he'll withhold it meaning he's pooing at like 11pm some nights. He actually went today at nursery obviously on the sly because again wearing dirty pants home and it was a much, much easier bed time. So I think we'll need to continue to work on independent wiping. He's great when at home or being babysat by family at knowing he needs to ask for help with it but just in nursery he doesn't like it for some reason.

The families thing I think is a big deal for him. We had a few play dates recently with other families and their (very involved and engaged) dad's were present and that really seems to have connected something in his head that he really misses his daddy. He was so little when his dad became no longer involved in his life that I know he probably doesn't remember his daddy specifically but its the idea of having a daddy he does seem very focused on at the moment. He has some photos he knows he can look at whenever he wants and I have told him we can talk about his daddy at any point and I've never spoken badly of his daddy to him but the only contact is a card and a gift for birthday and Xmas. But it's been a very, very constant topic of conversation from him multiple times a day. I've been trying to point it out as you say just pointing out differences in families but that all families are important and full of love but he seems to have got this default somewhere in his mind that he 'should' have a dad who he sees and he's very focused on which of his friends are getting collected by their dad's from nursery. I'm really glad he's able to talk about it but it really breaks my heart at the same time that he even has to navigate that at all.

We've got some great books which have actually been really helpful just for opening up conversations in a visual way so that's been helpful.

Sounds like a good idea to focus on wiping. Maybe also get some spare underwear, and if he's not irritated by the bad wiping, be prepared to throw some away. IME nurseries don't have the staff ratio to be proactively checking on 3+yos who independently use the toilet, they will only be offering help if DC specifically ask for it or have an accident. But if he goes off to the loo on his own they won't necessarily know if it's for a wee or a poo. If his pants are so dirty that you can smell it on him, then send some spare pairs in and let them know he might need prompting to change. Getting him to check the paper and see if it's clean yet is a good way to help him get used to how to be more independent.

My DC have been reluctant to poo at school/nursery at all, so the fact he's willing to go is a win in my book!

I did find it helpful for DS1 to acknowledge that yes he does have a Daddy but he doesn't see him right now and I think I said something like he is not ready to be a Daddy at the moment, in order to make it clear to DS that it wasn't anything that he had done. We talked about how being a Mummy/Daddy is a very important job and maybe he wasn't ready for that right now and perhaps he would be in the future but I didn't really know.

I suppose you're right that both mums and dads do feature much more prominently in media, books, etc for young children so he probably does have that sense from people around him. I am sure he will get there. I found it's best to be honest where possible, of course leave out any details which might be frightening or worrying, but to give simple information which is as truthful as possible even if it might be sad. It's easier to deal with feeling sad about something than not knowing, I think, sometimes.