fiercely independent + over tired at bedtime

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Anyone got any ideas to make bedtime easier on the days very independent DD (3.6) doesn't nap?

She wants to do everything by herself in a particular way (which changes nightly) but is too tired and gets cross or tired about every minor detail so everything takes forever making her crosser and more tired.

DS wasn't very independent at this age so was quite happy for me to baby him and do everything for him when he was overtired.

I can't get her to bed earlier because of job + school finishing times.

I suppose I'm looking for a way to make it less drawn out so that she gets to sleep earlier. Tonight I got out of the vicious circle by telling her we needed to be quick because tomorrow is SIL's bday and I've got to make a chocolate cake.

But I can't pull that one every night!

Sounds daft, but would it be easy to change the time to the morning and make supper one a bit of a lick and a spit??

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean have a quick meal? We always have main meal at lunchtime. It's the bit after the evening meal that is hardgoing (pjs, teeth, toilet, how she climbs into bed). When overtired she likes to decide how everything is going to be done, usually just after we've started doing it the wrong way.

I think you just have to say NO to her mucking about at night time and set some ground rules. Think about what you want her to do and tell her why (during a calm, alert moment - don't leave it till bedtime to discuss it or she wont take it in) and make it clear that she HAS to cooperate because Mummy makes the rules. You could build in a reward structure so she has an incentive to do as you tell her.

You can talk it through together and agree on a short bedtime routine that you're both happy to follow, but she'll have to understand and accept that it can't be changed as and when she feels like it. There have to be rules, even at bedtime.

She is pushing you to see how far you'll let her go, and extending bedtime in the process. Agree with KarenThirl, agree a reasonable amount of time to get all the important things done, and if ready in time, allow a further 5-10 mins for "faffing", arranging toys/bedding to her liking, choosing a story etc. That way, you both get what you want. If not ready in time, no faffing, no story. Warn of impending bedtime before it actually happens, so that she can finish what she's doing in good time before the routine starts. Make sure everything she needs is ready, so no wasting time finding new toothpaste or clean pj's for example. Don't leave her to her own devices, be around giving time bulletins, 'you've got 10 minutes left now" at 5min intervals, then at 5 mins, every min. Give a clear 'time up'.
You could time her using your watch, or a kitchen timer, the sort with a loud tick and a bell. Or make it into a race to beat the clock.

If she fusses or pleads for more time, stick to your guns, but don't enter into an argument, just say that she has run out of time, and she will have to be quicker next time.
Are you afraid she'll have a major tantrum if you clamp down? Let her. She'll learn in time that you mean business.

Thanks for your ideas. I don't think I've explained my problem clearly enough.

When she isn't overtired, of course she doesn't particularly want to end the day so we give her advance notice of impending bedtime, we do things in the same order and if she does delay too long there is no time for a story. Things usually go pretty smoothly.

I'm not afraid she will have a tantrum when she is overtired. My problem is that we have several at bedtime. What I'm looking for is a way to cut down on them.

The difficulty is that I can't work out how to remove the cause because they are caused by her getting really controlling when over tired eg she'll say she wants her favourite soft toy in the bathroom with her while she brushes her teeth (reasonable request) but then have a tantrum if I go and fetch it for her because she wanted to get it herself. But if another night I say ok, off you go, she'll have a tantrum because I haven't gone to fetch it. She is like this over every single detail. Sometimes it will be the position I am standing in that is wrong or the direction I am looking in! It would be impossible to sit down with her in advance and agree how things are going to be done.

Typing this is making me realise that she is probably too tired to know what she wants and that the tantrums are inevitable. I think I am just going to have to face the tears at bedtime on non nap nights until she is a little bit older and less exhausted by the end of the day.

DS was like this until he got a bit more stamina. Still is if he's overtired. Could you maybe offer an incentive to get her into bed? Am not talking material bribes, more something she'd really love. We tell DS a made up story once he's cuddled up in bed (this is after a routine of tea, game, bath, book). The made up story always has him in it, last long enough to be satisfying and he adores it. Somehow it helps get him into bed faster, as there's a reason to be there.
Also, we found doing deals helped lots. ie, you sit down and agree with her how bedtime will work. Do a sticker chart so you can go back to it and show her where you got stuck (not mid tantrum, obviously!). You stick to your part of deal (ie getting soft toy to bathroom), if she sticks to hers (ie going to bathroom when you say it's bath time), then she gets a sticker before going up to bed. She doesn't get a sticker if she breaks the rules she's agreed. If you think more of a carrot's needed, you could do a chart for a week, then have a treat that's won at the end of it - trip to special playground/ ice cream/ comic - doesn't have to be major.
Other thing we did to stop faffing was to use the kitchen timer - DS sets it say for five minutes (supervised!), so he can play until the timer goes off. He switches it off too. Suppose I'm saying that if she's a control freak, she might like taking the control. Good luck though. It all sounds horribly familiar..

Thanks Smee. She is a control freak but only when overtired. Over the last few days we have tried getting in bed in time to look at the book by herself before I read it to her. This is added motivation for her and is definitely making things quicker on days when she has had a nap. But she is too tired to focus on this on the non-nap days.
I don't like to wish them to grow up but it will definitely be easier in 6 months time when she has more stamina.

we have the same thing with our 16month old. whn he misses a nap he's a nightmare! have you read the book healthy sleep habits healthy child? it basically says that when you drop the last nap bedtime should be much earlier, even 6pm if necessary. move it 5/10mins earlier each night until you have a happy bunny. also offer your daughter two choices each night=this bath toy or this? this book or this one? these pjyamas or these? she'll feel in control which helps stop desire to tantrum but you get to pick out choices so not unlimited toddler decisions!