Gifted? Or SEND?

[DoggyBird]

I have a relative - a girl aged nearly ten years old. She complained to her lovely Jamaican lady neighbour that: "Can you believe I am nearly ten and I still haven't read the Tractatus?" So the neighbour, who is a volunteer at the children's library, promised to look for it in there for her as though she's likely to find Wittgenstein's opus magnum nestled between Charlotte's Web and The Gruffalo. I thought that was hilarious until I discovered this little girl has already read Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer and other philosophers, and could not only discuss them, but also critique them and highlight their respective inconsistencies and weaknesses like a post-grad student at Cambridge. Her dad thinks she's brilliant (I agree!) but her mum just wants her "to be normal" and have the same interests as her friends and is worried that she might be "on the spectrum (I disagree).

Many children are both.

Sounds impressive I hope her school realises her potential, the danger is she will be totally bored at school because the work is so far beneath her. Or is she home schooled?

Probably both. Abnormally high intelligence is a special educational need in an of itself in any event. People on both ends of the bell curve struggle. Life can be much easier if you're in the bulk of 'average'.

That sounds like a level of intelligence that will mean she'll have trouble with social relationships with her peers (who will be far behind her intelligence-wise). It'll potentially be very lonely for her.

This!

She attends mainstream state primary school. Her teacher wrote that she is something of a class comedienne as she has razor-sharp wit that has them in stitches, which I reckon is due to her jaw-dropping intellect. Her philosophy interest seems to me to be a hobby. Where some kids like computer games or horse riding, she does German Idealism and Logical Positivism. Oddly, while she loves girly things, it is noted that she hangs around more with boys. She's an enigma.

I’m not disbelieving you but I struggle to see how any ten year old could read and discuss the above, especially without extensive coaching.
if it’s true as stated, then she really is a genius and I guess her abilities will be hard to ignore especially when she gets to secondary school.
But are you sure she’s really reading and absorbing these very difficult writers, not just reading summaries of what they said and repeating those?
Her Mum’s reaction suggests this could be the case.

She started with a book she bought from a charity shop a couple of years ago called The Philosophy Book by DK which is highly illustrated and simplifies the ideas in a way that's perfect for kids. Then she talks about what she has read and then she asks for the actual sources. She also has family members who have a bit of understanding of some of this (like me, and her uncle Stan) and asks us questions and also to explain things with examples. Sometimes I struggle, like when she had read something by the Danish philosopher Kierkegaard with whom I am unfamiliar. If we can't help, she will generally find a You Tube video that explains it in a digestible form. One of the first signs she had fully grasped something was when she told off her mum for mocking a neighbour saying that: "people shouldn't be used for your amusement. They are an end in themselves." Those were very grown up words, but she had understood the context of the mocking and applied Kant's categorical imperative. I suspect that has to do with the fact her parents are atheists and Kant offered her a moral code a bit like a secular version of the Ten Commandments.

Nobody in their right mind reads Hegel.

The Tractatus is relatively readable but not easy to understand (somewhat similar to most of Wittgenstein).

I’d suggest she reads the Philosophical Investigations it’s much more readable and gives a better guide to his thinking.

oh an she could be either or both.

I was obsessed by French existentialists as a teen.

@Octavia64. Thanks. She quite liked Hegel's dialectics, but wasn't keen on Marx's reformulation - dialectical materialism. She started on a book by Sartre but couldn't get on with it and said it was "fuzzy". She also said she didn't think "Mr Kant" (her hero) wouldn't have liked his "stinky ethics". I guess she likes hard and fast rules and things that are evidence-based.

She sounds a lot like me when I was a child (although my special interest was never Philosophy!). Diagnosed with ASD five years ago aged 35. This post made me a little sad to be honest as I've been bullied all my life for being a 'know it all' when I genuinely thought others would be interested in the same things as I was (and still am)

I guess it's different if she has family members who can interpret the subject, explain and help her along. Then it's something that grows out of the environment, rather than a special talent. It sounds like you are pretty knowledgeable about philosophy yourself, OP.
I'm interested in why the Mum doesn't want her DD to develop along these lines. Is it because there's already enough philosophy in the family?

I’ve asked AI about this and it reports that the best known ‘infant prodigy was John Stuart Mill who started to develop in his teens.
Individuals who became world famous philosophers were asking deep and penetrating questions but did not develop skills in philosophy until their teens.
I t comments that one needs life experience to use philosophical ideas meaningfully.
So I think there’s something left out of your account?

It's perfectly possibly for a ten year old to enjoy and understand philosophy without being a genius, autistic or disabled. She sounds intelligent, motivated and passionate. It's like any other area of proficency: interest and practice breed mastery. Continental philosophy is just a bit niche, while being an expert in anime or fantasy lore, or a professional athlet in e.g. gymnastics at this age would be more common. Her having started with introductory summaries doesn't mean she has 'no real understanding'. No philosophy graduate would ever only read source material. Understanding at every age is developed through a mixture of reading introductory summaries, listening to explanations in lectures (which can nowadays be found online) and grappling with 'originals'. In the case of Continental philosophy, it's all translations anyway, so there is already a certain simplification and interpretation in place. As long as she enjoys it, it would be sad to restrict it, imo. I hope she finds more people she can discuss her interest with, even if it is online. Discord etc are great places for people to find likeminded people to discuss their interests.
Diagnostic criteria for autism and SEND are so wide now that one could easily diagnose everyone who is not perfectly 'mediocre' and average in everyway. For what it's worth, my then 8 year old daughter discussing the Tractatus with her psychiatrist let to her autism diagnosis. She used Wittgenstein to explain the limits of language and why being selectively mute and making and speaking her own language was only rational.

Get her to watch Monty Python - sounds like she has the humour for it. They often reference philosophers, and even did a song about it

Just echoing - academics in the family and a common theme is how imprecise and hard to relate to other people can be as they don’t think clearly. Autistic dc both find adults easier to relate
to and more enjoyable. Speaking in a pseudo-adult way is on more than one report we have - it isn’t quite right to me as that’s the way she speaks, it isn’t pseudo and never has been…

not all, but many academics in maths based subjects we know have dc with diagnoses, but could be our selection! You can’t make someone ‘normal’ but with awareness it’s unlikely to be a huge impairment once she finds her people.

Yes, J S Mill was famous, but there have been others who were prodigies and nowhere near as well-known. Ruth Lawrence springs to min who wasn't much older when she started her Maths degree, graduating with a First at just 13. Several Chinese children have graduated in Physics at an even younger age. Philosophy is a bit less common because it's not a subject they learn at school so they don't receive formal instruction as they would in the sciences or mathematics.

There is an easy way to tell the difference between gifted/bright and gifted/bright with ND. A gifted child is unlikely to correct another’s mistake compulsively and ND will always correct you with a full lecture, they like to share knowledge.

It’s really hard being bright but you learn not to correct people because you understand the social rules. Or you may make a bit of a joke about it. But with ND it is a statement of fact and really identifiable.

I have a good friend who is ND. She masks a lot but can’t help correcting you if you mispronounce a word. At times I have wondered if I’m ND but despite being sorely tempted at times I really can’t bring myself to correct someone. I may debate but not just state fact.

Another test of intelligence is that bright people will acknowledge if they don’t know an answer. Not because they are frightened of being wrong but their thirst for knowledge means they are eager to learn anything new. I used to hate tutors trying to wring an answer out of me or the tutor group. It was such a waste of time. I’d much rather learn the answer and be able to move on and explore the subject further than stuck on first principle.

My real point is that a 9 year old child could not have the world experience necessary to discuss philosophical ideas.
I suggest you google what Ruth Lawrence is doing now. She's certainly not leading the life of a genius; suburban housewife really.
The picture you're painting has too many flaws in it.
I think it would be better if you stated simply what the point is of your post.
Is it more along the lines of 'Do kids get laughed at if they show an interest in philosophy?'
I love the picture of your lovely Jamaican neighbour. But it seems to me that with the knowledge of philosophy in the family, running at least to knowing what a Cambridge post grad would be likely to argue in philosophy, surely you could have rustled up a copy of the Tractatus between you, without putting your neighbour to such trouble?
TBH, it's all a bit silly, isn't it?

Can be both. As a mother who has been there, I would say don't worry too much about the academic side. That will take care of itself, since she's motivated. Just provide what she needs with books, etc. With children like this, they are very prone to mental health difficulties later on. That's where you focus needs to lie. That and developing their weaker areas, social skills, social networks, making sure they stay balanced in life.

What does she make of Schopenhauer?