Is this normal behaviour for kids?

[bubblepink2749]

My partner has 2 kids aged 6 and 8. We’ve been together for a few years now. We have never had any issues ‘blending’ and when I suggest going off so that the kids can have alone time with their dad they ask me to stay so no issues there. Ex can be quite controlling and has tried to cause some issues but other than that we’ve had no problems in our relationship.

However, recently I am really struggling. I adore DP and he is an amazing man. Great dad and partner. The issue I have is the behaviour of the children and I don’t know if this is normal kid behaviour.

They both wake up screaming everyday. This is not an exaggeration - actual screaming and shouting. They share a room (their choice) and wake us up every morning we have them by screaming and having an argument.

When asked to do something they will ignore DP until they have a punishment and then start screaming the place down because of said punishment. They listened to me in the past but this is also becoming worse now.

They have no real respect for belongings, theirs or ours, and make a complete state of my car and the house. I spoke to them both about how I was unhappy about the car mess and neither could care less.

Both kids speak back and can be quite rude to strangers e.g. not saying ‘please’ or ‘thank you’. We correct this every time but it doesn’t seem to make a difference.

DP is a good parent (in my opinion) and does punish when they are misbehaving but consequences honestly make no difference whatsoever. They’ve had full days out cancelled recently but it doesn’t matter to them. He is also finding things very challenging at the moment. It is quite hard to implement behavioural changes when we only have them 50% of the time.

I really care for these kids and of course my DP and want the relationship to work. Does this sort of thing get better? I have no kids myself so I’m not sure if this is all maybe just normal! TIA.

Thank you, that’s reassuring to hear.

The issue at the moment is that there aren’t many instances of good behaviour to praise but we do give a ‘well done’ for even the smallest acts of kindness or half decent manners at the moment.

Are they getting enough rest? What do they like doing? What are they good at? Which outings work best for you as a family? Which are the most relaxing?

It may go against the grain, but recently I've found that when life becomes a battle and it's all a bit too much, it helps to lower expectations, step back from doing too many things and just try to 'reset' everyone, though I understand that's going to be a lot harder for kids going between two homes.

Tidy time is definitely something that works well for my DD10. Also I've found that rather than waiting for her to misbehave I try and counter act it.

So, if you keep your room tidy all week you can choose an activity to do. At her dad's she doesn't have any rules and I sometimes find she acts out when he's upset her in some way (not done something he said he would etc) so I always spend the first 30 mins of mummy time chatting through her feelings, what has she been up to with dad etc. this seems to reset her a little bit.

Calming activities also work well, painting, nice bath where she watch YouTube on her tablet.

The problem here is you've got unhappy/destabilised kids, disrupted schedules and attempts to control through removal of privileges.

It would be better not to plan things like the farm until you have more confidence their behaviour has calmed down.

Keep everything very low key and flexible. Of course set out behaviour expectations, but try to set up safe routines to promote calm.

You need to get out of a negative loop of exciting activity promised, then removed for bad behaviour - it makes their stress higher and thus makes it harder for you to get a grip.

They have hobbies and sports six, sometimes seven days a week. Once they’ve finished with sports it’s 10pm some nights (two clubs in one night) so no they do not get enough rest.

This is at the insistence of their mum and if I’m being completely transparent we are too scared of rocking the boat and having our contact time reduced. DP had to go to court to get contact time that was more than one evening a week after they divorced. It was very distressing for him and I don’t blame him for not pushing harder on that issue tbh but I agree it’s a huge part of the problem.

Thank you, appreciate the advice. Will definitely try and keep things more low key from now on rather than planned days out.

Think of cosy, calm things you could try - and crucially repeat. Colouring, craft, gardening, baking - all very simple things that feel homely. Watching a long running series together every weekend morning - if the routine is they get up and you all watch half an hour of something very calm (not a cartoon, not competitive, maybe nature-related) whilst eating toast - change the tone of mornings.

I'd assume they are very, very stressed - read up on how to calm stressed children, on the effects of high cortisol.

Their lives sound incredibly busy - your home could be a haven.

Also - they may be expressing their stress at your house because they can't at the other house.

I actually cried reading this, thank you so much. Feel like we are trying our best for them but failing. Honestly really appreciate the advice.

We did baking at Christmas actually and they loved it and were very well behaved and helped me clean up after.

Will do some reading tonight on high cortisol and stress in kids.

Anyone who keeps trying isn't failing.

That Christmas baking sounds lovely.
Good luck

Maybe you could tell them that waking up to screaming and arguing is unacceptable. Therefore, they are going to have separate rooms. If their behaviour improves generally and if they say hello to each other in the mornings and remain civil, they can share again.

I would think seriously about their schedule. A regular 10pm bedtime and clubs almost every night is way too much and you’re seeing that in their behaviour. They sound really stressed. If the parents can’t agree I would suggest court and no activities on dad’s days.

The fact that you care so much really matters, so well done.

I agree with this.

I would step back from punishment and raised voices and focus on keeping things very calm and relaxing. I'm not saying let bad behaviour pass uncorrected, but I'd keep it calm and easy to move on from and try to stop it escalating - so saying "that's rude, X, please don't say it again" and then just moving on, rather than immediately escalating the situation and demanding apologies and other high-demand reactions that place a big burden on them to respond. You want to try to minimise demands if possible to decrease their stress.

I'd separate them at night so they don't wind each other up at bedtime. Warm bath, take a child each and do reading and bedtime stories with them until they fall asleep.

You have got some great advice on this thread already but I would absolutely have a look at the books “How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk’ and “Siblings without rivalry”. I have read every parenting book out there (parent and teacher) and these two books are the ones I recommend. There are many techniques you could use in those books which would involve the children in their own outcomes. I used to have reminder lists pinned to my fridge when I was going through tough times with my own children.

Ah. Another one saying that their club/hobby schedule and lack of sleep is likely to be a very significant factor, compounded by what sounds like a stressful coparenting relationship. Any idea how stable their home life with their mother is?

In the short term, I second @newornotnew's suggestions. Make your time absolutely as chill and low demand as possible. Crafting, baking, lego, jigsaws, do a bit of gardening together. If they need more physical activity on a weekend (not sure what sort of clubs they do), keep that simple and not too many options for now. Go to the park. Go for a bike ride. Have a routine as much as possible – if they know what to expect, it automatically reduces their stress levels. Happy, cosy little traditions in the routine are even better, like the TV and toast on weekend mornings suggested above. Outline the plan for the day in the morning, especially if not routine.

If there are days when you're in earlier and you think they'd really benefit from an early night, but you know they won't go quietly, we have 'pyjama parties' where my two get in pyjamas, teeth brushed, etc. early and then we watch a nice, low key film – and then they fall asleep and I carry them to bed. Early bedtime achieved with no fuss.

Help them understand their own feelings and what helps them reset. Do they need to bounce on a trampoline (you can get mini ones), retreat into a den with a cuddly toy and an audio book, do a bit of colouring, fiddle with some sort of sensory toy? Also, silent roars can be surprisingly satisfying. We do silent tiger roars, complete with 'claws'. I would hold the boundary that things like screaming aren't acceptable, but as far as possible shift the focus from punishment/consequences to helping them manage their emotions better – redirect them to the trampoline or whatever, or if you catch it early enough, ask them what they think would help them feel calmer. If they've made a mess or been really unkind to someone, they can help clean up or do something nice for that person to apologise after they've calmed down.

Is the current contact court ordered? I completely understand DH's reluctance, but if you make the rest of their time with you as calm and restorative as possible and they are still overtired, stressed children who are clearly not coping, he might want to at least get some legal advice.

Apologies for the essay!

Is there something they can do as soon as they wake up in the morning so they're not just in their room arguing and screaming? Could they come straight into you for a morning story? Could the eldest have the 'grown up responsibility because she's so mature now' of making herself and her sister breakfast first thing? I think it would be a shame to separate them and I'd try and work on solutions to their morning behaviour first.

I'd be working on encouraging the eldest to be more independent where ever you can. I'd also be looking carefully at the things they're always arguing over and thinking how you can resolve those issues.

I agree with 'you're being rude X, please don't do it again' and moving on. If they don't care about punishments then punishments are never going to change their behaviour and you might as well stop trying them. Natural consequences are fine though - I'd also reduce screen time as much as possible and try to avoid using it as a reward. Have time doing things with you and their dad as a reward instead.

How do they make a mess of your car? don't let them eat in the car if that's an issue and have one special toy each that is kept in the car (might be better if they both have the same thing if possible). Have songs or an audio book on for them to listen to.

Quite honestly I’ve never understood why people invite this into their lives. You don’t have to be with this man. His kids sound like little shits. Having your own children is hard enough, why invite the offspring of someone else into your life with all their bloody problems? I just don’t get it.

I love the idea of doing lots of calm activities.
I think I would be looking to reframe everything.
So rather than punishments, think of it like training.
eg mornings - in the mornings we are going to

• wake up and smile and say good morning.
• come into daddy and smile and say good morning.
• go downstairs together and do xxx

So then at each step, they wake up screaming - you say - remember in the mornings we smile and say good morning! Then make a gentle joke about it until that has happened - what next? Oh yes lets go downstairs.

So lots and lot so of modelling of the behaviour you want and lots of calm together activities.

Tidying - no child of this age is naturally tidy.
Every time you get out of the car everyone takes their mess.
Eveyr activity finished you tidy before you move on.
Before bedtime you tidy away what you have been using.
Try little competitions - who is the fastest today? Who can beat me picking up clothes? (make the competition against you not against each other, and then praise them as a team for winning against you)

No, not normal and if it is allowed to continue, I promise you it will get a whole lot worse as they age.

My kids are ND so the no always saying pls or thank you is some thing I recognise but I understand the cost of this to them.

Why if the kids are arguing in the morning is he not getting up before they’re awake so he can intervene and stop it from happening. As a SEN Mum I need to be more involved than the average parent but it sounds like your DP is being very passive in lots of situations resulting in punishments and screaming rather than been proactive.

Is this normal behaviour for kids?

Do you really not know?

Classic attention seeking. Stop blaming their mum, give them one on one time with their Dad whether they say they want you there or not and lots of praise for the 30% as you phrase it .

the praise thing is really hard. We think it has to be somethign big, but actaully it is just reinforcing the behaviour you want.
As a new teacher I remember watching an experienced teacher. It was indcredible to see how she caught them doing something good and praised it. just all the time in her conversation with the kids, in a very calm gentle voice.
Something like this
OK class, look this way
Thank you Sarah, looking at me, well done Peter, that's great Martha.
So blah blah instructions. Off you go.
Gosh David is really on the ball this morning, straight to work, good job. Thank you Adam for wlking sensibly.

few minutes later walking round the room
This table is working so well, getting on with writing, quiet voices.
And this table have been helping each other.

The kids in that class fell over themsleves to be mentioned.
Try a similar thing, running commentary of what is happening, with positive things in.
Let's sit down to eat, thank you for being so quick, that's lovely getting the spoons out, who is going to help pass the plates round? That's super thank you
and so on, modelling and reinforcing the behaviours you want. Quiet voices, kind words, and so on.