4.5 year old having meltdowns when told no/stop. Constant power struggles. Losing the will, help.

[HeyGabby]

Hi,

I was hoping someone might be able to give me some advice about my 4.5 year old daughter as I'm really struggling with her at the moment.

For the last few months, it's like she basically can't cope with hearing the word No.

Recent examples:

We were out and about and she saw a playground she wanted to go into. I said we could, but I wanted to grab a takeaway coffee from the shop first. She immediately started kicking off, trying to run away from me towards the park, shouting etc. When we got into the shop I was half way through making my drink and she went to leg it, so I grabbed her and said if she didn't wait nicely we wouldn't go in at all. Behaviour continued so I said, no park. She went absolutely mental, literally lying on the floor kicking and screaming like a toddler and I had to carry her back to the car where she took ages to calm down.

In a shop, she decided to run away from me. Told her if she was going to run off she would have to hold my hand. She didnt want to do that, cue meltdown same as above. I was mortified but just about managed to calm her down until we finished the shopping.

Playing outside. She starts picking the buds from one of my tree. Ask her not to or we will go inside. She looks me dead in the eye and carries on. Inside we go. More flailing, screaming, shouting horrible things at me, trying to run back outside to the point I have to lock all the doors and hide the keys.

There are more examples but you get the gist. I don't know what's happened because she was actually pretty easy before, up until the last few months I would tell her it was time to leave and she would just say OK and put her shoes on. I'd say don't do that and she'd stop. But now I feel like every day we end up in a power struggle over the smallest of things, I end up exasperated and in a bad mood and it's affecting our relationship.

I've tried explaining to her that I don't just say things to be horrible, I've always got a reason like keeping her safe or not wanting things to be damaged, and I try to let natural consequences happen as much as possible but often there isn't one, especially if it's something I want/need her to do.

The worst bit is I remember my relationship with my own mum feeling a bit like this and our relationship was negative until I was an adult. I don't want the same for me and my DD, I want us to have nice times but as bad as this sounds, she just seems to be hellbent on spoiling everything at the moment 😔

Can anyone help please?

I knew things like playgrounds would be a problem so never walked past them unless I was intending to go there. Picking buds off trees I would try to explain the buds will be lovely flowers or leaves the tree needs to grow. Good luck.

Im sure most parents have been in your shoes. You are describing ds 2 at that age.
There us no doubt it can break you.
I took my mum's advice which was to stay consistent, mean what you say and have age appropriate consequences.
She is trying out boundaries and seeing how far she can go with you so she will have her own bench mark of your limits.
Inside I was furious but kept an even tone and facial expression when dealing with ds.
He repeatedly did the same thing that I took to wind me up, I cant remember what it was now but my action was always the same.

It will get easier but make sure you are always consisting your behaviour. Children, I believe, need consistency so they know what is expected from them.
Also just to let you know once ds was 6 he became an absolutely loveable child a fabulous teenager and he is now 26 and is a brilliant son and friend.
You'll get through this!!!

Stand firm. You are the parent. She is the child. You will win this battle of wills - this is what this is.
If she can’t be trusted to not run off then when you are out and about she has to hold your hand all the time. Or reins. Reins are really a fantastic thing for children that can’t be trusted not to behave. Sometimes the threat of the reins coming out is enough to stop the running off.
Explanations can be short - she has no real concept of the danger she could be in and neither should she - it isn’t developmentally appropriate.
Give her some small wins. Don’t be afraid to use the death stare and scary voice.
Also your relationship with her is yours and hers. It’s not the relationship you had with your mother. Stand firm in your natural authority as a Mum.
She’s allowed to have these big emotions. You are allowed to have rules and behavior expectations and carry through explained consequences eg no park.
Also if possible maybe swerve shops etc with her for a while if you can.
Lastly during this phase a short chat before outings can be helpful. Eg we are going to the shops, we are going to hold hands, we are going to stay together. If I have good behavior we will go to the park, get a drink etc.
Was it also possible she was tired/out of routine/over stimulated etc? That can also spark this behavior.

If you're in England. You can legally use smacking. Be firm and discipline her.

I've tried explaining to her that I don't just say things to be horrible, I've always got a reason like keeping her safe or not wanting things to be damaged over-explaining, you're trying to make her see things from an adult point of view

I remember my relationship with my own mum feeling a bit like this and our relationship was negative until I was an adult overthinking and projecting - you can't reliably remember being 4.5 and you are not your mum, your DD is not you

she just seems to be hellbent on spoiling everything at the moment she's 4.5, she's not hellbent on spoiling things, she's just testing boundaries and unable to control herself when angry

Kids get cross when they can't have what they want.
Routines help, avoid triggers, say yes when you can, offer healthy choices, distract rather than confront, and just accept the shouting when you have to be firm.

And maybe get some help for your worries about your childhood being repeated?

I teach children this age and have taught many children who seemed to be in a power struggle with me. Through the years as a teacher, I now believe that the more children push us and engage in these power struggles, the deeper they are craving boundaries and the more black and white they need them to be.

So this is just consistency, same consequence every single time. I have noticed that children who do push like this, often finally get the point and their behaviour reflects that they feel happy that the authority has been established. They say that behaviour is communication, and lots of people think that means that the child is communicating that they are hungry or tired, but I believe that they are often communicating a real need for the adults to be in charge. They seem to push against what they want, eg, kicking or screaming when they are told no, but I almost think that this is like some kind of hypothesis that they are often testing to see if your (the adult's) leadership is watertight and to make sure that they can trust that you really are in charge.

Some musings as my time working with kids and having my own. Often the bigger the 'tantrum', the tighter they need the adult to be with their expectations and follow ups.

Experiencing exactly the same type of behaviour atm, so much so I'll have to ask my dh later if he wrote this! Some very helpful suggestions here.

My son was very similar. We always were consistent and stuck to what we said, so if we said ‘if you continue we won’t do X’ and they continued we stuck to it.
Our boundaries were very firm and now at 7 he is usually very well behaved. BUT it took years of being consistent. As it happens we suspect neurodiversity, consequences took a long time to stick and we do sometimes have wobbles.

We are kind and respectful with our firmness but what we say is final.

I look at general behaviour of children these days and think that a lot have never had boundaries set.

It’s really hard, but it sounds like you’re giving lots of ultimatums which makes a bit of a power struggle but also both options aren’t what she wants. She doesn’t want to stop picking the flowers and she doesn’t want to go inside, so it’s a lose lose for her. It’s hard not to do it though and I catch myself saying the same all the time. I think distraction is best or telling her what she can do.
we can’t pick these flowers because we want it to stay looking pretty, and in a few days we might get to see lovely flowers, but we can pick these daisys, how many can you find. Or whatever makes sense at the time.

I also think pick your battles and make life easy for yourself where you can eg not walking past a playground or Packing your own coffee, or get her a babyccino so it’s fun for her too.

she isn’t trying to ruin things, she’s only 4. She’s just struggling, try to imagine you’re her and it might ease some of your irritation (I don’t mean that judgementally, it’s just what helps me)

I found distraction and signposting changes helps. I used to try and avoid saying no directly and give DD lots of advance notice of things coming to an end.

The second part of this. In my view, fine to say no, but you might find more advance notice helps. Slowly counting down to punishment (5, 4, 3...) can work well. Initially they wait until 0 to test if you're actually going to follow through, but once they know you will, the countdown gives them a bit more time to figure out "do I really want to do this".

Feel for you!

Unlike everyone else, I would avoid the triggers for a while. My prickly child did best when there was structure, limited exposure, and lots of distraction.

We had a really tight structure for the day, repeated regularly so we all knew the plan. No choices, no asking what he wants to do. I devised a good, varied, fun schedule and that’s what we did.

That doesn’t mean you never let them choose anything, but a structure and routine really takes away lots of triggers.

It okay for them to feel big emotions. It’s hard to not get what you want, but it’s a skill everyone has to learn. Let her feel it until it passes. Don’t punish feelings, but you don’t need to give in just because it’s emotionally hard for you to see. I used to just sit us down, let them cry and scream about it and wait. Eventually they would stop, we’d talk about it, and then we’d carry on with our day.

Thank you for the replies and advice. It's actually a relief to hear others have gone through similar.

I do understand the logic behind avoiding triggers, and I probably wouldn't walk past a park I wasn't going into if I could avoid it, for example. But some things are kind of unavoidable, like going to shops or being in our own garden! And part of me thinks that she needs to learn that she won't always be able to do exactly what she wants immediately or at all, and she has to accept that? Rather than avoiding and kicking the can down the road. Or am I expecting too much of her age? She's my first so I've no clue to be honest! Is it really so unreasonable for her to wait a couple of minutes for me to grab a drink before we do what she's asked to do?

I just feel like a terrible mother failing her child at the moment.

I 100% agree with you and personally wouldn't avoid triggers unless its very easy for you to do so. I also don't personally agree with distraction either because the real issue is always being skirted around. The child (and parent) needs to go through the eye of the storm in the middle and come out the other side.

You sound like a great mum OP. Ive said it before on here but I am a huge fan of Janet Lansbury 'No Bad Kids'. I think you'd like it! Its different to any other behaviour management philosophy you will read.

Do you think she sees another child behaving like this somewhere and sees them get what they want ( eg nursery)?
My daughter started to do this sort of thing when she saw other parents/ carers backing off when their children threw tantrums at preschool.
Hold your ground. When my daughter started " showing off" I would physically remove her from the location and say " that's not the sort of behaviour people want to see"
We are leaving now, so you won't get to do....." When she realised she was missing out and had no audience she soon stopped doing it.
Make sure all your other relatives do the same. DD used to try screaming at her grandma, who was real " old school" she would just go into another room and put the Hoover on to drown her out. As long as DD is somewhere safe a bit of being ignored won't hurt her. Screams soon stopped at which point she was invited to rejoin grandma.
It's all about rewarding good behaviour and not giving attention to poor behaviour.
My daughter is now in her 20s and has excellent manners and social skills. It's hard work but you need to be consistent.

I've just downloaded the Janet Lansbury book on audible so will give it a listen, thanks for the recommendation @Darkdiamond !

@CurlyKoalie Yes thats possible, she started reception last September so it's new kids and new dynamics. She often says 'so and so is allowed to do x and I'm not' so I know she has started taking in what other children can get away with and comparing.

As a granny I can't move fast outside like a young mum. So bought some reins off Amazon to stop the running away. Stayed calm and quiet during meltdowns in a shop until they'd finished. Mum got reins then because it can be terrifying thinking they could run into the road.

Fast forward a few years apart from the youngest a work in progress still they're all delightful.

I understand what you’re saying, but I think redirecting is good. I want my dc to learn ‘it’s ok we can’t do x let’s do y instead’ for their own coping skills
its good to know how to find an alternative positive. If my boss said no you can’t take a half day on Friday, I might be disappointed. But if she said but you could have it Thursday, or you can take a long lunch though, or whatever, I’d be less disappointed. So I view it more like that. Instead of focusing on what they can’t do (go the park, damage plants etc) you are talking more about what they can do (pick something else in the garden, play with these garden toys)
I think you can always take a hard line (if you felt you needed to in a year or two when they’re a bit more able to understand reason too

Is it really so unreasonable for her to wait a couple of minutes for me to grab a drink before we do what she's asked to do?
well of course not no, but you’re working on the assumption that she understands that she is a. going to get what she wants eventually (which isn’t the case because you may take it away if she doesn’t behave correctly) and b. An understanding and concept of time and how long she has to wait.
An alternative question would be, Would it really be unreasonable for you to take her the park first and get your coffee after? And the answer is No ofc not. But you’re choosing not to do that because that’s not the best option for you, and as the adult you are able to make that decision. She doesn’t have that power. Ofc to an adult your decision makes most sense, but to a child, you getting to do your thing first and then her maybe getting to do her thing at some time in the future is a hard concept.

Stick to your guns. If you want a world of pain for many, many years into the future, give in to her.

You are doing all the right things - following through on your 'if' and 'then' statements is really, really important, and though you may feel there's nothing coming of it many days, you will gradually see progress.

How is school for her? Any comments from teachers, positive or negative? Sometimes the transition to school.all day makes children behave dreadfully when they're at home or with the safe person in their lives. In a way, her behaviour is a compliment to you because she feels safe enough to treat you to the tantrums.

Don't take any of it personally though. Try to take each new day as a clean slate.

There's a book that is often recommended here, How to Talk So children Will Listen. Maybe take a look.

No, you are absolutely not unreasonable in your expectations, and avoiding triggers is not the way to go.

You are building her confidence in you more and more every day when you don't let her get away with behaviour you don't want to encourage. By the same token, give her a word of praise for listening and cooperating when she is cooperative.