Is this a nursery problem or a DC problem?

[seasidesuzie2]

My son who is 4 and 9 months has been attending the same nursery for almost 2 years. He is bright, funny, energetic and loves to be with other children. But recently they have raised multiple concerns about him and told me that there are barriers for him going to school. This has coincided with a change in staff (it started when his key worker left and since then 4 more have followed with one original member of staff remaining).

They say he is rough in his play, doesn’t like to join in anymore and stamps his feet when asked to do an activity. This is unlike him, he used to come home with loads of models and handmade cards speaking about how they danced to music they like and now it’s as if the whole mood and atmosphere of the nursery has changed and they are raising concerns about his behaviour before considering that the staff changes may be contributing.

I was phoned the other day because he had put rice on a child’s head at lunch time, when he was told to stop he got up from the lunch table and mucked about in the room. The teacher told me that it ‘usually works when we threaten to phone mum but not today’ I had no idea this was a strategy they were using to manage his behaviour and was horrified. I went to collect him because they couldn’t get him to co-operate, when I got there the new manager didn’t even know they had phoned me.

I would really like to remove him however he starts school in August so feel this may be more harmful for him.

Generally at home he gets a warning and if a behaviour continues he has to leave the room and come back when he is ready to apologise and listen and it works.

The nursery appear to shout instructions from the other end of the room and he doesn’t co-operate. I don’t shout at him because it makes the situation worse. I speak to him very sternly and very simply, no arguments or discussion and he is a great kid in our house/swimming/play dates etc

I think there must be a reason that so many staff have left, and it probably ties in with the new management and the way the nursery is run.
I think it’s a nursery problem mainly, and perhaps lots of changes are affecting your child and their behaviour. It sounds like the new bunch aren’t as caring and interested in activities like the old staff and maybe the child is bored and playing up for attention?

That sounds like a nursery problem and I think you should remove him.

Are you going to need any wrap-around care once he starts school? Because the parents who use acchildminder instead of a Nursery for the preschool years have a way easier time arranging wrap-around if their childminder is happy to do the school run, and your worries about the damage of a short-term change would be eliminated if you can move him now to start doing full days with a childminder who will subsequently do the school run with him come September.

Thank you. I would really love to remove him at this point because it’s clear that his behaviour is not extreme however they are failing to manage and modify minor disturbances which then escalate.
They also have zero boundaries, they continuously ask me what we do at home and appeared slightly shocked when I told him he could either put his shoes on or walk to the car in socks. I don’t negotiate with him and he responds well to this but they are very fluffy and prefer to re-enact how a child should behave/respond once they have calmed down, it doesn’t work.

Sounds like he has outgrown nursery and is bored and ready for school which will be more of a structured environment

I get heavy hints that they believe he is neurodiverse. I think he is unsure of the rules/expectations every time he turns up to nursery and there’s a different teachers/s, he doesn’t appear to have a good rapport with any of them since his key worker left. The rice incident coincided with a day that there were two new teachers in the nursery.

I would trust your gut. If you can take him out and have him home/find another setting if you work, do it now.

So when is he 5? Are you not in England? He’s probably needing a new start at school. August start at school when he’s already 5? I don’t think stopping nursery would harm him. Maybe have the summer doing other things if you have time. It doesn’t look like he’s learning much now. What friends does he have? Does he see other dc socially? Maybe do more of this and has he started reading etc?

They sound awful. Five whole months a large chunk of a 4/5 year olds life. If you can get him out of there I would. It can’t be coincidence that the day he misbehaved with the rice was when there two complete strangers in the room.

I'd move him.

as another poster asked will you need wrap around when he starts school? If you do & plan to use a childminder now would be a good opportunity. Or get him into a nursery that a feeder for the school he's going to go to.

do YOU have any thoughts about him & ND?

From the sounds of it your lack of boundaries is causing your child to believe they can do whatever they want.

’I don’t negotiate with him and he responds well to this but they are very fluffy and prefer to re-enact how a child should behave/respond once they have calmed down’

That isn't negotiation that is parenting. Your child’s behaviour isn’t normal or acceptable and you need to understand your part in this and that it isn’t just all the nursery.

He is very close to school and there may be change of teachers, environment etc there. He singing to have a very hard time if you don’t get the behaviour in check.

Inwouod remove him and look for a child minder. Or else it's going to be a long 5 months for him.

The nursery has raised multiple concerns about his readiness for school and I really think you should look into this further before dismissing his behaviour as ‘a nursery problem’.

I’m surprised so many people think tipping food over another child, foot stamping and refusing to listen can all be explained away by a change of staff with no further exploration needed. Obviously staff coming and going is unsettling for a small child but his behaviour is clearly very concerning if the nursery had to call you in (quite unusual in itself). Nursery staff will have seen hundreds of different children between them and generally know when a child is school ready. If they are flagging concerns I’d honestly listen to what they have to say. Have you asked for a meeting to discuss all of this?

On a separate note, I would agree that a childminder is best if you need wraparound care.

I work in a preschool and this sort of behaviour can be more common in the older children who have simply outgrown the setting. As one of the older children I imagine he is just a bit bored, as well as finding the changes unsettling. If you can I would take him out and try a childminder who may be able to cater to his needs better.

Which country are you in @seasidesuzie2as that might alter any advice

To be fair, it's possible that both nursery are managing him badly and he is also neurodivergent.
Not all parents are receptive to that and my experience is that they mention things your child is having trouble with over the course of from when they are settled in (or should have settled) and then bring it up directly/formally much later on.
I am not sure if the earlier comments are to check whether you are open to extra support before formalising, as we know for sure that a lot of parents are not keen to accept early referrals and help.
Interestingly both of our children were at childminders before and neither had any concerns, in fact one insisted our child definitely wasn't ND. but at larger settings it's easier to spot the differences. So it pays to be open minded, as it will pay dividends as they go up through school.

Regarding the nursery itself though, if you honestly aren't happy, book a meeting to talk things though (and consider using chatgpt or something to get your thoughts in order, but don't put in any personal information). If you're still not happy after that then it's time to look for other options. Good luck!

Nursery issue. Child's behaviour is communicating his confusion/unhappiness/dislike of the setting and lack of boundaries/primary contact person.
If you can, remove him, as cannot see it improving.
My children never went to nurseries but their behaviour in school (and desire to be in school) has been badly impacted by attitude of their teachers towards them over the years. We've had to raise concerns over the years and when they have been properly addressed, the difference to our children has been incredible. (One of my son's teachers also tried to hint at possible autism because she couldn't be bothered to engage with a lively, inquisitive, bright little boy!)
Good luck!

@Besafeeatcake What an earth do you mean? From what the OP has written, she is the one giving clear firm boundaries while the nursery seems to be moving the goalposts all the time?

I think it's a mix of things:

• nursery and the multiple staff changes are clearly an issue-
• your son is having some challenging behaviours-
• your son has outgrown nursery.

I would change nursery and also take a closer look at his behaviour.

Sorry but I really disagree. OP sounds like she IS putting no nonsense boundaries in place and nursery are not. I really don't understand your post at all.

I'd look for another setting like forest school or preschool so it's more grown up. He sounds bored and they sound ineffective

Its hard to say. The change in nursery staff certainly won't help. However be aware nursery staff can see very different characteristics than parents may do because the environment is different. My autistic/adhd child was fine at home when he was 4 and an only child (quiet house, set rules, one to one attention etc) but difficult at nursery because its busy, noisy and full of boisterous kids.

My opinion comes from 20 years of working with children, varying between preschool, reception and ks1.
This sounds like a nursery issue. Having to regularly threaten children with phone calls home suggests inexperienced (and not very good) staff. That they do it without asking their manager for support first as well doesn't sit well with me, what else is the manager completely unaware of?

If pulling him out is logistically possible I would, it doesn't sound like an environment that he is happy in, and 5 months of that is really not going to help the school transition.

Id be so annoyed if someone called me because my kid put rice on another kid. Like im at work, and it’s rice 😂😂
Hes probably outgrown the environment and there is also probably a reason for so many staff changes. Threatening regularly to call the mum, and then actually calling you over some rice and a child playing on the other side of a room, is embarrassing. And saying he might be ND because he’s not listening to the rules (what are the rules?! Is it clear and consistent? With clear consistent action when they inevitably push the boundaries?) or no longer playing with the other (presumably younger) children seems a bit much to me.
I’m not saying your child should be misbehaving obviously, but you can only deal with the behaviour you see at home and it sounds like you’re doing that. Obviously keep the ND thing on your radar but I’d probably want a second opinion first from someone with better coping strategies and experience than new staff who just threaten to call mum

A bit of bad behaviour really isn’t nd. The nursery are throwing this around. His parents would have noticed this well before now.