Sleep

[Motherlandmama]

Hoping some experienced folks here might have some good advice on sleep for our eight month old. She is proving a big challenge so any advice on night time sleep routines or breaking contact naps will be very welcome!

Just for background, our little one has always been terrible for sleeping or napping but, after months of persistence, she now naps two or three times a day (provided they are contact naps)- the approximate times are 11:30a.m-12p.m, 2:30-4p.m. and sometimes she might be tired and she will have a twenty minute nap around 5:30/6p.m. She will only nap on me and not in the cot, pram or any other place. I absolutely have to address the contact napping but, at the moment, I feel prioritising her overall sleep is more important.

So my priority is I am trying, but failing miserably, to get her to go down for the night. She is usually exhausted by 7:30/8pm but she just won’t give in to sleep (even contact sleeping on myself or my husband will not work) She will eventually fall sleep about 10:45/11p.m. and then she sleeps deeply through the night until 6:45/7a.m. I appreciate we are very lucky at night with her but I just feel she is not getting enough sleep overall. For instance, despite trying since 7:45p.m. tonight to get her down, she is still awake. As a guide, the routine I am trying at night is a baby massage or bath, followed by getting changed, we then read a book, she has her bottle and we have cuddles. On the rare night she drifts off in my arms she will wake the minute I put her in her cot. If we put her down drowsy she is hysterical within minutes. Tonight I have tried putting her in the cot and held her hand and lay down beside it so she can see me. She is not hysterical but is very grumpy and sad in herself and, two hours later, and we are both still here and she is still awake. I’m hoping you might all have some miracle advice for me…

She is sleeping way to late in the afternoon
Have you tried keeping her awake from about 2pm latest?

Contact naps are hard.
But ideally... A morning nap around 30 minutes or so. Then a big nap after lunch. Say 12-2ish
Is there any possibilty you could try get a better sleep.routine?
At the moment she isnt getting enough sleep... Its super hard especially with contact sleeping.
Does she have a dummy or a comforter?

It sounds hard if she will only sleep on you and takes 2 hours to fall asleep.

At that age my son was down to 2 naps, 9-9.30/45n and then 1.5-2 hours at lunchtime. He slept 7.30 -7ish BUT with at least 3 or 4 wake-ups and had to be fed back to sleep.

Does she seem tired when she wakes in the morning? How physically active is she, how much fresh air?

When you say she’s not getting enough sleep overall, is that because she seems tired all day or because you don’t think it’s enough? Some babies have pretty low sleep needs and as long as they’re content then all good. They haven’t read the chart which says they should be sleeping 12-15 hours per day.

Sounds like sleep pressure is not high enough at bed time, agree re moving the afternoon nap. Of course she will not fall asleep at 1930-2000 if she’s been asleep 1700-1800

You need to break the contact naps and sleep train, I'm sorry. There is no magic bullet here. It's going to be a hard habit to break (which is why contact napping on a regular basis is best not to start in the first place) but over about 1-2 weeks of Ferber you'll get it done.

She doesnt have to do that - it is not a gjven.

Hi all, thanks for the advice so far. I have often dropped the short nap at 5p.m- truth is she might only look to do that once every few days anyway. I have also tried moving the lunchtime nap earlier but I then end up with a very cranky baby at about 5:30p.m. who won’t sleep or eat for me but cry’s hysterically. Anyone who has seen those crying sessions tells me that it looks like she is overtired. We have had days where she will cry 3 or 4 hours, obviously exhausted, but still won’t sleep. Picking her up does not stop the crying either. Last night she was rubbing her eyes and her head started rolling back from 7:45ish but she did not give in to sleep until nearly 11p.m.

I do think the comment about her sleep needs being less might be worth considering. If that is the case, I would just let her be but it just seems she can barely hold her head up some nights with tiredness and she still won’t sleep. Yet, when she finally gives in, she is out cold! We have tried a few types of music, white noise, different lighting but none of which seem to make any difference. I’ll take the comment on board about fresh air, we spent hours out over the summer but the weather is very bad in recent weeks so not always possible to get out. However, I could do better on walks with her. Definitely something to try again over the next few days as I think she does do better with fresh air.

In relation to sleep training, I’m not a fan of letting her cry it out. No judgment on those that use that method but it is not for me.

In relation to dropping the contact naps, how have you managed it? She will not sleep in the pram or travel cot ever. My mum (a NICU nurse) has failed also to get her down during the day for a nap without letting her contact sleep. Think it galls my mum professionally that baby has evaded her techniques so far 🤣

She has never liked dummys, we tried a few brands but to no avail. She sucks her thumb and she also likes sucking the label on her comforter. So I give her that to sleep. For instance, if I go to contact nap with her she will immediately hold the comforter in her right hand, such her left thumb& will usually fall asleep in a minute or two.

Well she has two choices, she can keep trying the techniques that are proven - in her case - not to work, and hope that eventually they do. And eventually they will grow out of it.

Or they can try the one thing they refuse to do, which is sleep training, which probably would work.

I'm not sure what other advice can be offered which will do anything meaningful. If people are diametrically opposed to sleep training and they've got a baby who sleeps badly, then good luck to them!

Different things work for different babies and indeed different families. Contact naps work for many and sleep training is not always the answer! Lots of things affect sleep. I’d be looking at adjusting naps and bedtime first OP. Sorry you’re struggling, it can be so tough.

The 1950s called and want their parenting tips back 😂. Perfectly normal and natural for babies to contact nap ffs and is something that can gradually be worked on.

I don’t think the amount of sleep is a problem per se because some are just lower sleep needs, but the bedtime sounds hard. In my view baby is napping way too late. The first nap should be approx 3h after waking, the next 3.5 hours with a 4h wake window before bed. So that roughly looks like:

Wake - 7am
First nap - 10-10.30
Second nap - 2-3
bedtime - 7pm

Try using huckleberry which is very useful for wake windows

When you say you dry around 8pm and she doesn't go to sleep til 11 are you genuinely spending 3hrs trying to get her to sleep? Presumably with upset for you and her? If I've understood that correctly I wouldn't bother with that at all, what's the point? She sleeps through all night, that's amazing! Only one of my 3 was doing that at that age and my youngest is nearing 1.5 and still wakes loads of times a night, I'd far rather he stay up with us and then sleep through! I would leave baby up with you until at least 10pm to start with and try then. If it's quicker and easier to get them to sleep at that time then you can try push it back to 9.30 and so on over time. This will probably happen naturally as she naturally moves to 2 naps and becomes ready for an earlier bed time anyway. She's not tired early get because of her late naps and that's fine.

Agree with pp, why bother fighting her?? You can't force someone to sleep - if she's not tired, let her stay up until she is tired. Sounds like she sleeps beautifully at night, too.

I agree with this, I’d try to re-jig the naps so that you have a morning nap say 09:30-10:15/30 and then second nap 1:30-2:30/45, then try bedtime at 7 so you have good solid wake windows, build the sleep pressure.

BUT if she’s just not tired enough for sleep, don’t stress about it. My daughter is nearly 2 and has always been a rubbish sleeper, we just don’t fight it now really. She sleeps when she is tired, fighting to try and get her down before she is ready only leads to frustration all round.

Hi all,

I really appreciate everyone’s input, even the suggestion of sleep training, as I think it is best to look at it from all perspectives so thanks for all of your thoughts.

I think the reason I am keen for her to get more sleep is she often has red eyebrows, rubbing her eyes, head rolling etcetera so she appears to be tired but will not give in to sleep. I then googled it and learned about over tiredness so went down a rabbit hole on the sleep issue!! I think she does need more sleep than she is getting but rather than focusing on the hours of sleep I’ll start with addressing earlier nap times, more outdoor time with her and go from there. If she stays up with us at night it’s not an issue for us but just want to do the best thing by her. Hence, the three hour nightmare of bedtime. It also good to know other parents have been through it and that some babies just have lower sleep needs.

I’ll definitely try huckleberry as we used that in the early months to track feeds and found it very helpful so I’ll try the sleep part tomorrow.

I really appreciate all of your ideas and kind words and reassurance!

How physically active is she and how much time does she get outside, what does a normal day look like aside from sleep (food, activity etc)?

Has she had any fascia work like cranial osteopathy?

100 percent a much earlier first nap - think my DD woke about 6.30 and had a 9am nap at that age.

She goes every 5/6 weeks to a cranial osteopath and she is quite active and curious. We do a few baby classes every week, visit friends/family a few times a week and I spend quite a bit of time every day on the floor with her rolling, playing, doing any sensory type things with her etc.

We used to be great for daily walks but it has rained most days here for weeks on end so the walks have fallen by the wayside a bit. Hopefully the weather will improve with springtime as a few comments mentioned about her getting fresh air and I do think she is happier with better sleep on days we go out and about.

My son was a similarly committed contact napper and would only sleep at night upright being held. Partly CMPA/reflux and partly habit I think. I would breastfeed to sleep then perform a manoeuvre rotating him 90° and lie him on my chest. Night time my DH and I would take shifts to survive. DH could get him to sleep tapping his bum. It was torture so I have sympathy. What worked for us was a. cutting out all dairy and soy in my diet, then of course weaning him dairy free and b. Using sleep associations and gradual reduction of input. First I kept everything the same but added white noise, pre sleep routine etc. Then breastfed only til sleepy and finished off by tapping bum on my chest, then by lying next to him with contact and bum tapping, gradually adding distance til was only bum tapping without lying with him, then gradually reducing the rate of tap til i could just sit by the cot, then could leave the room. Although all this did make it a bit better, got us non contact naps and safe sleeping, we still had multiple wakes in the night until 14m when he finally managed to master rolling both ways so could sleep on his belly. Age 3 now we have a mixture of sleep through and one wake but he's champion at getting himself to sleep. Looking back on it all, I can see the logic in the ferber advice because the whole thing was so protracted and torturous, but I thought the same after my DD and when DS came along I still couldn't face it, so I know if I had a third baby I'd devote months to gradually adapting sleep again.

That is interesting, my baby has CMPA and acid reflux issues. We had to hold her upright for thirty minutes after each feed and I think it has contributed to the comfort she gets from being in our arms. She loves bum tapping too though so it’s a good idea to use that as a tool. I will add that in and try gently putting more and more distance between us. Thanks so much for all the tips as it would be so great to get an hour or two in the day where I can eat and get chores done whilst she is napping.

She was asleep by 9:30p.m. this evening so all the advice people have given regarding nap times and that does seem to be helping! We will wait to see now if she wakes early!!

Routine seems abit off to me.
at that age we did the following two naps...
9am - 10am
1pm - 3pm

bed 6.30.

all kids are different but the first nap seems so late I don't know how baby is not already overtired by then and it might be setting you up for fail straight away.