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Parenting

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Hitting / Biting / Throwing / Hair-pulling / Face-scratching.

23 replies

toddlerhip · 14/06/2008 20:27

My ds (15mo) has been doing this for a month or two when constrained to do sth he really doesn't want. But this week he started doing it at babygroup (with a rattle) to other children. Not in anger though. When told NO ultra-firmly he just changed child and did it again, more than once, until bodily restrained from running around. I took his rattle away and the victims mum seemed to think that was a bit harsh. With the next child, he banged him on the head with a rattle, and then just as we were doing the No & Sorry routine he grabbed the little boys face in his fingers and twisted it. It was just awful. A few people have said it's a phase..??

The strange thing is he is also very loving, goes round giving children and people he doesn't know hugs wherever we are, feeds food to children and adults he barely knows, gives them things, drags adults over to crying children etc.

The hitting / scratching thing towards children and their mums isn't in response to any violence, in fact it often starts by face-stroking and then suddenly turns violent, almost like curiosity to see what will happen. And he often laughs. He often tries to get away with doing it to me in fun too, or, having done it viciously & got a reaction he starts laughing as if to try turn it into a joke, so he definitely knows it's wrong.

When he pulled my hair really hard recently i pulled his back (gently). He bawled, must have been from the shock but didn't do it again. A while ago he had been biting me (in fun) when breastfeeding but really hard, to get an effect. Eventually, on a friend's advice, I bit him back very gently but firmly. Again, bawled but no repeats! Can't exactly do that with face scratching and throwing though, and i don't fancy being a smacking mum as the idea is to get the message across that hurting is wrong.

Any tips?

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sunnytimes · 15/06/2008 16:18

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toddlerhip · 15/06/2008 21:49

Thanks sunnytimes. That is quite a relief. "NO with eye contact (while holding shoulders) and then a short period of ignoring can do the trick". ..is pretty much what we do. We do loads of praise for good behaviour too. We do the same as you with apologies. I think it's important he sees the effect and that making children cry is wrong. If i knock into him accidentally i say sorry and give him a kiss/cuddle so I think he gets the idea. We do a lot of giving love to family, other children, dogs, babies etc all of which has a good effect. I make a fuss of the victim too once we've done the NO thing (amongst a flood of apologies to the parent).

This week i think i'm going to try and swap up to the 18month+ babygroup. If he tries it on there he's liable to get a nasty shock from the other kids which might sort it out. I'm so worried he might hit a little baby in our group.

How did you get to see an educational specialist & what did they say his case is if you don't mind me asking?

My husband wants us to see someone but i think he's pretty normal although boisterous and alert for his age. I just would like a way to stop hitting other children. I am worried that when he gets to the stage of getting angry with them, the hitting might get worse. At the moment, because of his age i think it's a curiosity / cause-effect thing. When did you 3 yr old start this?

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toddlerhip · 15/06/2008 21:54

Sorry, just seen he started at same age. God, that's a long time to have this problem. So much for it being a phase. Like the idea of explaining why kind behaviour is good, though get a bit stumped on that one. It all leads to happiness surely? This is getting quite philosophical

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evenhope · 15/06/2008 22:14

My 15 mo has been doing this for a while. Fortunately to me, not to other babies, but it's driving me mad. She bites, she scratches, she twists my face in her hands and she hits and slaps me. I tell her off and she laughs

toddlerhip · 15/06/2008 22:17

Have you tried the doing it back evenhope?

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evenhope · 15/06/2008 22:20

No I can't bring myself to.

Divastrop · 15/06/2008 22:31

i dont think doing it back is a good idea as they are just babies

my ds2 was like this,although it started when he was older,about 20 months.i found out when he was 3 that he had hearing problems.i dont know how much that contributed to his behaviour though.he did start to grow out of it from about 2.6,as he started to get more understanding of others' feelings.

my 2.6 year old dd has started doing this to 15 month old dd now though.as she only does it to her sister i assume its a jealousy thing.

anyway...the only way i could deal with biting etc in a toddler was using 'time out' .i recall ds2 being in 'time out' every 5 minutes at toddler groups.i agree its a 'see what happens' type behaviour at 15 months-which is probably why dd3 hasnt done anything like it(yet)as she's seen what happens to her sister when she does it!

toddlerhip · 15/06/2008 22:55

Mine doesn't seem or act like a baby! He's a very mobile, very strong little tearaway with a lot of character. Lots of people think he's about 2.

It's so hard to know whether doing it back makes it worse of stops it. Biting his wrist, one time, very gently but with clear intent when he kept biting my boobs did stop the boob biting but i haven't done it back when he's bitten me 'normally' (!!!). It did feel like a real cold blooded betrayal though when he bawled.

But I don't know whether it's sending the message, biting is wrong and it hurts and gets mummy upset so don't. Or whether he doesn't relate it to the act and so it says mummy will sometimes inexplicably seem to want to shock you (even if doesn't actually hurt), which is just horrendous.

I walked out of a sing&sign class the other today because the teacher lost control and had a sort of sudden roadrage attack on the kids and pulled 2 of them around, including mine. Whether your reaction is controlled or not probably makes all the difference. I think that even though this is not solving out problems the thing is to try not to be angry with the dc but to show strong disapproval.

A mum (of 3) told me today told me not to be too worried about it but absolutely not to allow the biting because your child biting another dc is a real nono.

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maggi · 16/06/2008 00:12

Use all forms of communication to get the message across.
1 get eye contact
2 wait for a pause in his movements/noises (but if he doesn't quieten after a few seconds carry on)
3 use a deep and loud voice
4 use sign language, a hand held palm forward infront of the opposite shoulder, passed sharply across the body to its own shoulder
5 simply say no
6 repeat this 3 times if he doesn't look as if he's taken it in
7 put him down/ away from you and others so he has time to reflect without any attention from others.
8 be consistent and persistent

sunnytimes · 16/06/2008 11:15

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toddlerhip · 16/06/2008 23:12

Thanks Maggi. Maybe we just need to do more of 8!

Agree about the boredom thing sunnytimes. Mine really isn't that interested in the groups we go to. He loves the music and the people but given the choice between sitting on my knee paying attention like most of the babies & toddlers or tearing around exploring (the exits, disproprotionately!) and saying hello to all the strangers he will always choose the latter. He likes the circumstances more than the activity. We are going to an 18m+ group this week as i am worried he hits a small baby. Gets bored very quickly with his toys at home too which means its impossible to get anything done when he's awake. Was your ds like this? Physical activity out and about is best but v time consuming of course. Can't get a good nursery place for love nor money though, even p/t. We are going to see the h/v in 2 weeks. Thank you for the tips about the books.

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sunnytimes · 17/06/2008 12:34

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RoRoMommy · 17/06/2008 13:59

My son, who is nearly 15 months old, has just started hitting and pinching, too, and usually me but sometimes (according to my mum, who takes him) at play groups, as well. It's interesting that our kids are all around the same age (or were, when the problem started). I find that when he does this, he usually has a look on his face like he knows he's doing something that is pushing a limit or boundary and he's interested to see what the reaction will be. I think persistence and consistency are key to this because the more he sees the same message again and again, the more likely it is that this will be imprinted as beyond a boundary he is not permitted to cross.

Okay, hopeful, but it's the best I've got!

sunnytimes · 03/07/2008 19:50

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Whitty · 03/07/2008 22:38

My 14 month old is just like this too.

My first baby didn't really have this I don't think, but he did head bang for a while.....

I think children do this out of sheer frustration. For example, today my 3 year old was eating a chocolate mousse (luxury yeo valley one I hasten to add....!) and me and 14month old were sharing (to save my weight and his addiction to chocolate lol). Anyway, we finished ours before 3 year old did, so little one went up to him, and attempted to take it off 3 year old, to which he told him where to go, so the result was a big whack off his baby brother! He has started to do this a lot, and I think its just a case of frustration as he doesn't have the words to express how he feels. I attempt the whole no thing, but think I might try it a bit firmer and use the tips on here.

wotnopulling · 03/07/2008 22:48

i was trying to read up on this today as our 2 1/2 year old bit the 10 month old today. as you say, started out as gentle play and then a nip - whaaaaaaaaaaa

advice i read was to not bite them back as they can't put themselves in the shoes of others and can't rationalise or link their own pain to the pain of others. toddlers and babie are completely egocentric.

so, instead 'hug' them close and whisper in ear something along the lines of no biting or we don't bite and then - and this is the interesting/counter intuitive thing - involve them in making the injury better. so rather than making them leave the room (which is what i'd been doing) suggest a something that will make the injured party feel better and get the biter to help do it.

i haven't tried it and there are other suggestions in the book but haven't got round to reading them yet. but hth.

morocco · 03/07/2008 23:01

yep, another daemon 15 month old here. she's quite cute about it though

good grief though - I would not be taking her to baby groups! can't imagine the carnage. she's the youngest of 3 so most times she's at older toddler groups where she does much better. needs a bit of watching but the older kids can keep her in line

don't worry about it at all, just keep on being calm and firm. please don't start down 'biting back' etc road. it's a very confusing message for a baby - don't bite cos it's bad, see, I'll bite you to show you.

toddlerhip · 06/07/2008 01:00

Sorry, i'm not very good at managing my threads. Had to ask the HV some health related things and forgot about this - partly because he hasn't been doing it lately.

I have just been saying very firm nos to bad bahaviour. He hasn't done anything to me, even when i'm cleaning his teeth which would be primetime as he hates it. We moved up to the 18m+ Rhythm and Rhyme group. He was a bit fazed the first week and didn't participate at all but the second week he got the idea and was even dancing enthusiastically to the Scarecrow song - AND NO HITTING!!

wotnopulling - I think that is a really great idea, thank you!

What is the right thing to do when they push the boundaries - is it say no once then ignore, or keep on saying it? I get the feeling the former works better. Case in point - he still throws food on the floor, very deliberately & challengingly, but think if I say no once then ignore him it doesn't happen as much, whereas if i keep saying it, he keeps doing it. Not 100% sure about this though.

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toddlerhip · 06/07/2008 01:03

Thank you for the Wiggles tip! We are a bit low on baby dvds

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sunnytimes · 07/07/2008 07:12

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toddlerhip · 11/07/2008 00:07

No, i think that's a great idea sunnytimes. The thing that is weird & that i don't get is this. He knows it's wrong. I do look him in the eye and say sth like "no throwing" or "no throwing food", (but have you finished is much better!) and he just looks at me blithely and does it again. Whereas for other things, he'll cry if i say no or look mischevious. But with food throwing it's complete and total indifference!!

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clemmiejones · 10/05/2011 20:09

my 34 month old has very similar behaviour eg. affection that gets out of hand and turns violent. I am always so nervous when he goes near other smaller children/babies as seen him so this so many times. It's always completely unprovoked and I am mortified. Thought he would have grown out of it by now.

AngelDog · 10/05/2011 22:58

Try telling him what you do want him to do (and show him) rather than saying 'no'. Toddlers often can't process language fast enough to keep up properly, and if you say 'no throwing', he hears the 'throwing' but not the 'no'. It's better to say 'leave the food on your tray' because if he understands 'food' and 'tray', he's got the idea.

At 15 months though he's not throwing food on the floor to challenge you, it's to see what happens to it (gravity) and to see what your reaction is. I'd just let him get on with it tbh - he'll grow out of it soon enough. My 16 m.o. throws food on the floor a lot and I think it's a pretty normal stage of development from what I read.

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