Balance between gentle parenting and being firm?

[exhaustDAD]

Hello everyone! I have been thinking a lot about a certain aspect of raising my children. DW and myself have always agreed on the way we are raising our children. We knew a couple things for sure: We did not want them to have the childhood we had, where you actually need to be worried about doing something that would make them blow up and frighten you one way or another. And equally, we did not want them to become little people who would be entitled enough to believe they could get away with everything, walk all over us, adults, and feel like they are the centre of the world.

I do know children will always test boundaries, but lately I feel a bit helpless and stuck with them on this front. When they were little it was a lot easier, but now they really seem to not respect what we are telling or asking from them, until we start raising our voice. And I hate that.

How are you fellow parents doing regarding this? What works and doesn't work for you?

I live by pick your battles if you're shouting all the time over every little thing they won't care if you're being soft all the time and not giving any consequences they equally won't care. They need to know where the line is

Gentle parenting and being firm are not mutually exclusive. The key is to remwmber that you don’t have make them happy all the time. Sometimes they will cry / get angry / have a tantrum because they don’t like the boundary. That is fine. You can be kind/supportive and not shout/frighten them but also be firm and not give in.

Thanks @youalright and @Fleur405 - I wholeheartedly agree with your points. We have started "picking our battles", and admittedly, DW is a lot better at that than I am, I need to actively remind myself not to make everything a back and forth. And yes, I am very much in the mindset of not having to make them happy every time as long it supports them and their upbringing as a whole...

I just feel like all these supposedly "right" steps don't really land nowadays at all.

Gentle parent does involve firm boundaries. Can you give some examples of what you are finding difficult?

Of course!
Best example - Years ago I have started introducing small things that they could/should do on a daily basis, to start implementing a sense of responsibility step-by-step on a small scale. Such as - setting up their pencil cases for the next day, putting the towels on the rack to dry after bathtime instead of just dropping on the floor, putting the shoes ont he shoerack after getting home, instead of letting them fall wherever they land as we barge through the door, pick/wipe things we drop while eating without leaving it there (if we notice it). Nothing major, you see. We are talking years, and without fail, they keep not doing them, it just doesn't stick, and if I ask if they forgot to do something (right after it should have happened), they always look at me like there is not a clue in the world that could help them solve the mystery, even though we are talking years of daily action. On a good they, they just grunt and do it begrudgingly when I remind them, but most often than not we reach the "I don't want to" and "nooo, not gonna" levels. Initially, for a round or two I go down to their level, and calmly explain that we don't always choose what we want to do, sometimes there are things we just have to, etc etc, things they cant expect others to do for them, all that stuff. We get into discussing what is fair, whether it is fair for mummy or daddy to tidy up the mess they make, all those things. After a few rounds of that, what I like to do is give them a choice - either go ahead and do the right thing, or they choose to give up privileges. I know this sounds like threatening, and it is pretty much that, yes.. I hate doing it. They know I will keep my word and if I say "no device for 3 days" I will keep my word. That's what usually makes them do it, but they clearly feel unfairly treated.
Another example would be the morning routine - now that brings more shouting. Not getting ready, not getting dressed, not putting shoes on. Endlessly explaining that we absolutely have to set off otherwise we will be stuck in traffic and I will be late from work (this is not a unique problem of mine, for sure :) - But I have lost count how many years we have to do this... It involves explaining why it's important, and we analyse that they would also feel better if we had calmer mornings, but for that they need to get with the program... and yet... no change, they push and push until I run out of options and raise my voice. Hate doing it. And I am very transparent about it too, how it makes me feel, how it makes DW feel, we talk about how it makes all of us feel.. I just don't understand why being lazy and pushing back always overwrites peace...it's like... Guys, can you sometimes give it a rest, and pick your battles, too? like we do? Obviously joking, but still...

In short - boundaries are there. There are clear cut-off times for things, how long we have for this, and that. What will happen if they choose to do this and that, we are consistent with all of them.

I gave ds(21) firm boundaries, he said I was stricter than other parents in my expectations for behaviour and accountability (I didn’t excessively limit what he could do), but I never raised my voice to him in anger.

I also don’t agree with explaining to young children to the nth degree why they shouldn’t do something - a simple we don’t hit/draw on walls or whatever is more than enough for them, it doesn’t need a 5 minute in depth conversation which ultimately leaves them confused. Calm but straightforward and firm would be my way to go.

How old are your kids?

Do you mind me asking, are you in America op? Just as you said "a couple things" instead of "a couple OF things". If so, I do think parenting seems to quite extreme either way over there. I am from the states myself originally.

I do aim for somewhere in the middle and I cannot stand more modern parenting "jargon" like "he was dealing with big feelings" (meaning he was battering his dad with a cricket bat) etc. Children need clear boundaries so communicating those to them as much as possible and then following through but without getting overly emotional myself is quite important to me. So yes, you have to face this consequence but not because I am angry.

they are both pre-teens.

@SeasickSusan - I definitely see what you mean. But nope, not from the US. I just make a lot of mistakes typing, especially on my phone :)

Is It a case of how you ask them to do things? For example ‘butter goes off when left out the fridge’ or ‘wet towels rot the bathroom floor’ work better than ‘you forgot to put the butter away, again’. After a while as you start to say ‘butter goes…’ then they join in and eventually they do these things automatically!

Do you think one if the issues is it’s now engrained? I also wondering how much autonomy, processing time and take up time they have. Do you say I noticed you haven’t put your shoes and coat away, I am gonna make a cuppa and when I’ve done I expect you have sorted the issue or are you expecting them to jump and solve it straight away. Add some light hearted humour into the situation to stop it being a challenge because if you start with the energy that you’re about to start a fight they will match that. I also worry that devices gone for 3 days means what do you do the next day when they haven’t put their shoes away, what next? If they do some thing worse where will you go next?

If you seek it at the time how to do deal with it. I would just say “Jack, (pause) shoes” and not engage with anything they reply with.

Sounds like there’s too much discussion going on. In my opinion, just reiterate what you want doing eg towels! Said in a firm but not shouty voice. No back n forth discussing the whys and wherefores. Waste of energy. Just tell them, stand there until it’s done, firm look on face. Then say, thank you. And move on.

Stop all the endless discussions. Give them clear instructions and clear expectations.
There's no need to go on about what's fair on mummy and daddy.
Tell them to pick up their crap, and if it's not done by the time you count to 3, there is a consequence.

@Macaroni46 cross post perfection 😆

My children are not afraid of me but if they annoy me, they know I'll annoy them back.

I don't do lots of shouting or parenting by fear or anything like that, but I just make it so that it's easier and more fun if they're doing what they're told.

Typical consequences are sitting next to me for 5 minutes during a fun activity if they get two warnings (so at birthday parties/soft plays etc.) or leaving the activity if they continue to behave unacceptably. If they're rude to me when we're out of the house, I'll actually stop in the street or wherever we are and refuse to move until I get an apology, similar for bad behaviour. I don't shout, I just call them out on it loudly and firmly and make it clear that compliance will be easier in the long run.

It doesn't work perfectly as we're not robots - we still have the odd tantrum, meltdown or shouting match (including by me). But it works most of the time because the kids generally realize that normal service won't resume until they're toeing the line again.

Thanks guys, these are really good points to reflect on! Genuinely helpful.

All you can do is be consistent, my strategy is ask first, then tell, then ask if they need an incentive/consequence, then give them a time limit to either start or finish. Also the routine is the same every time, which is doubly important in the case of SEN.
Ours are a bit younger but I think ultimately you have to work with the child you have, maybe the "standard" approach doesn't work, but you can try to create a family culture that works for you. There's no point you going around stressed in circles, which is I guess why you're here.

A big tip is to get them involved as decision makers rather than as workers. So what I've done before is got out post it notes and pens and e.g. Morning routine, when do we need to get to school, ok how long do we need to walk, how long to get coat on, breakfast, etc etc, let's add it all up and make a morning time line. Then the alarm goes off, and if something isn't working then we adapt the timeline, but it's collaborative rather than a power struggle.

What I truly struggle with is making them consider when we start with clear and concise instructions. We do not start with long paragraphs of what need doing and why. Clear and concise just doesn't seem to register for them. And that is what I'd love to somehow overcome...

This ^

I also don’t agree with explaining to young children to the nth degree why they shouldn’t do something - a simple we don’t hit/draw on walls or whatever is more than enough for them, it doesn’t need a 5 minute in depth conversation which ultimately leaves them confused. Calm but straightforward and firm would be my way to go.

and this ^

Stop all the endless discussions. Give them clear instructions and clear expectations.
There's no need to go on about what's fair on mummy and daddy.
Tell them to pick up their crap, and if it's not done by the time you count to 3, there is a consequence.

and this ^

For things like putting away shoes or getting ready, you’ve had the discussion once. Now go straight to enforcing the rules. Shoes away or no devices. Quick and simple.

only get into discussion if it is a new issue and if there is time.

sometimes you can enforce the rules first and then explain why after.

Makes perfect sense. My problem is that it's not sticking. They really know that I will follow through if I say no device, and yet, if I go X or no device, they still push it.

Well, yes, it is normal for dc to push boundaries.
That is why it is really important from when they are really small to be consistent with boundaries and for the dc to know that when you say no, you mean no (or whatever it might be).
The bigger / older they get, the boundaries they push will become about things that can have much bigger consequences, which is why it is important you are consistent now.

And that is exactly my problem @RecordBreakers - That we have been consistent, ever since they were very tiny, and we are talking lots of years, but it's like we are just starting, like they are allergic to actually following things they know by heart.

But if for example they don't hang their coats up when they come in, surely you call them back and say 'coats'. They don't do anything else unless coats are hung up. There doesn't need to be a punishment as such, they just don't get to do what they want until it's done.

And no, it probably won't stick. Things like this aren't important to kids, so they don't see it as being necessary to remember.

How old are they?