I'm feeling alienated

[Dot82]

My daughter (14) has become exceptionally disrespectful over the last couple of years probably since around half way through y7. Her dad and I separated Christmas 2017 when he walked out unannounced once he'd began a relationship with an 18yo girl. At the time, my daughter resented him because it was obvious his gf was his priority. He lies and is very manipulative. He has only prioritised our daughter since his gf left him. Fast forward to now, he has filled my daughter's head with rubbish so much that she disrespects me constantly. If I ask her to pick up after herself or do her homework, she tells me I'm controlling her. She's even told me I shouldn't get involved with her schoolwork because it's none of my business. I've told her that whilst she's a child and her teachers email me to say she's not done as asked and could I encourage her to do better, I will still remind her. I have spoken to her dad about it but he will say anything to please her regardless of how daft it is. He bad-mouths her school in front of and to her and says I shouldn't keep telling her to do as she's asked. (Her school is actually really good and supportive.) He's also said that in his house, he picks up after her to save arguments so I should too and that I'm too argumentative for constantly asking her to do stuff. I don't confront or shout. It's a simple ask. I've learnt to close her bedroom door so I can't see that mess but when it extends to communal areas of my house, she should respect it. When she was with him during one call, he told me I was backward and a moron for not allowing her to just go to him because she had been told off for leaving my house in a complete mess. If she's ever told off or doesn't agree with me reminding her that she has homework, she calls her dad and complains. He always tells her what to say to me. There are comments he's said in the past and she repeats it now- things that she wouldn't naturally say. When she's at his, she always has the phone on loudspeaker so he can listen. He says it's not but occasionally I'll ask her a question and he'll answer forgetting he's not supposed to be listening in. He always reassures her that I'm being ridiculous. I even overheard them having a conversation both absolutely slagging me off. My dad died and I sold his house and he passed comment on that too during this conversation. I confronted them about it and he told her off for not telling him I had a security camera fitted. It was just a coincidence that I'd checked my camera at the time because my daughter should have been at his house. I'm not an unfair parent. My daughter is well looked after and gets plenty of attention. I'm at the end of my tether and I don't know what to do. Is this parental alienation?

Thank you. I've already spoken with them.

He wouldn't openly make comments to me. He's very crafty in the way it's done. Instead he acts overly nice. All of his negative words are never face to face. He'll say it to my daughter and she'll agree especially if I've asked her to do something she doesn't want to do. It's such a weird situation. She will speak on the phone on loud speaker to me when she is with him and he tells her what to say and she's daft enough to do it. They say that's not true but I've asked her something and he's 'accidentally' responded. She will down-talk my family in front of him knowing he hates us. My daughter has zero respect for me or my family and I don't understand why. Especially when it was her dad who made the decision to leave (looking back, thankfully), he started a relationship with someone else before he left our family home and allowed this person to treat her badly, he rented a property just big enough for him and his gf with only one bedroom, he made excuses as to why she couldn't stay with him then blamed me for influencing her not to. I can't tell you how many times I had to send her to him crying because she didn't want to go but I believe it's important for her to have a relationship with both sides of her family. I also can't tell you how many times he would call me in the middle of the night to bring her home because she would cry all night. He lies so much. All of his friends turned on him so he has noone so he's felt the need to befriend his daughter. I know some of my daughter's behaviour is normal teenage stuff but this is next level outright disrespect and disregard for anyone else. I did not raise my child to be this vile and use manipulative tactics to get by.

Especially when it was her dad who made the decision to leave (looking back, thankfully), he started a relationship with someone else before he left our family home and allowed this person to treat her badly, he rented a property just big enough for him and his gf with only one bedroom, he made excuses as to why she couldn't stay with him then blamed me for influencing her not to. I can't tell you how many times I had to send her to him crying because she didn't want to go but I believe it's important for her to have a relationship with both sides of her family. I also can't tell you how many times he would call me in the middle of the night to bring her home because she would cry all night.

What’s done is done but I don’t think you should have forced the relationship tbh. Why did you do this?

It’s not at all important or beneficial that everyone has a relationship with their father when he’s clearly an emotionally unsafe, manipulative and abusive individual.

And are you saying his girlfriend treated your daughter badly and you still pushed contact?

When children are crying and distressed, because they don’t want to go see the other parent, especially if that parent has a new partner there - I think that should be carefully listened to.

I am also curious as to what age he was when he had an 18 year old girlfriend?

This may or may not be related but there’s a term call emotional incest and it includes situations like where a single parent is using a child as a stand in for their spouse emotionally (not sexually)

I had a friend who insisted on maintaining contact between her daughter and her daughters dad. I suppose she was brainwashed by society which demonises mothers who “keep fathers away from their daughters”

No doubt some mothers don’t have a good reason for making that decision, but what’s often missing from the discourse on this is that many times they do have valid reasons.

I warned against it because he was physically and emotionally abusive to her when they were together and she had to flee for her life when their daughter was 6. She was adamant bi-weekly contact should continue and that he was not a risk to their child.

Until she discovered from someone who knew him that videos of teen girls being up skirted were found on his phone - so basically inappropriate images of minor ie child porn. I can’t remember if he created these videos or he had just downloaded them. But either way their daughter was 11 by that point and obviously almost a teen herself so she immediately ended contact. She no longer felt she could say with certainty that her daughter was safe with him.

She will tell her daughter why exactly when she’s older. Lucky for her her daughter was always a lot closer to her and quite distant from her dad so I guess it was easier to end contact.

It's such an awful position to be in, it's heartbreaking.i can't get my head around why they can't just be amicable and help raise well-rounded kids. I hate my ex with every bone in my body but does that mean I want my daughter to have a poor relationship with him? Absolutely not. He was my mistake, not hers. He's the same. Constantly buying her affection. She gets everything she's needs and wants to an extent.

You're doing the right thing by not introducing your daughter to your new boyfriend yet if you don't feel ready. It's not pretending you don't have a daughter, more being a responsible parent and not having people in and out of your daughter's life.

Definitely in this together xxx

You have already had an enormous amount of good advice on here, but I just wanted to say my DS is a little younger than your DD and honestly I find his attitude and behaviour tiresome. I am at a loss with how disrespectful he is to me and his dad and we're together. Like you say everything you ask them to do, cleaning up after themselves, moving their belongings, reminders about homework is often met with such an attitude. He says things to us I'd never ever have said to my parents. So i do think some of her behaviour is normal.
I think the phrase 'pick your battles' is a good one to keep in mind. If she doesn't do her homework, let her face the consequences with school. I've started moving his belongings into a pile and any time he's looking for something I direct him to that. Little things that help ever so slightly.
I think your DD will have a shock when your ex has a new partner and she is suddenly not the focus of his attention and he no longer wants her to stay with him again.

I see you still haven’t realised you created a rod for your own back by pushing a relationship with her father who is capable of being abusive to you and will likely do the same to her the older she gets. No one is saying you should’ve sabotaged the relationship, but you actively forced it when your kid showed distress. And even now you’re letting her disrespect you but not him. The mind boggles. What are you teaching her about her value as a woman?

i can't get my head around why they can't just be amicable and help raise well-rounded kids. I hate my ex with every bone in my body but does that mean I want my daughter to have a poor relationship with him? Absolutely not. He was my mistake, not hers.

Good luck OP. I just hope your daughter stays safe and isn’t placed at risk in the future by your martyr act and your exes toxic relationship with her.

As I’ve said I’ve seen twisted men like this turn very nasty when their daughters are no longer children in their eyes.

Thegurnica is right, and I say that as someone who did the same things.

Morality can become a coping tool when a person struggles with boundaries. Morality prioritises looking good, calm and fair in the face of abuse instead of saying “this has to stop”.

The decision to send her regardless of her distress was a decision based on virtue and what good mothers are supposed to do instead of what was best for her. I’m not judging you, I did the same myself and it’s largely subconscious. But you have to stop managing how you look and start managing what is actually happening.

Morals don’t stop triangulation and tolerating disrespect doesn’t make someone a good person. To a child being parented through this lens it doesn’t feel noble or fair. It feels unsafe and confusing.

It wasn't a 'martyr act' as you put it. It was simply encouraging my daughter to have a relationship with her dad and his family. All of his obvious abusive tactics came later on so initially I did encourage her to spend time with him. She refused to stay over with him for a whole year which was fine. Now I'm to blame for her not wanting to go so I can't win. I was completely oblivious to what he was doing. Stupid I know but I've learnt my lesson the hard way. When you're in a relationship, you are blinkered to what is actually happening and I take full responsibility for that. If I was fully aware of what he was doing, all whilst going through a bit of a breakdown, I would never have encouraged when she said she didn't want to. This is actually why she ended up seeing him for a few hours each week but not staying overnight. Her knowing this made visits a lot easier.

Also I don't 'allow' her to treat me disrespectfully and not her dad. I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion. I have spoken to her about her behaviour and tried to make her see the difference between right and wrong but when you're 14, unaware you're being manipulated and you are very impressionable, it's difficult to go against that.

Anyway, thank you for your response.

I wasn't made aware of his gf until months later. It was then that I learnt of what he'd done. He'd kept her a secret and told me and my daughter that she was called one name then told his family she was called something else. The upset wasn't because of his gf. We didn't know about her then. She was angry with him for leaving I suspect. She would tell me she wanted to go then when it came to it, decided she didn't want to. Once I'd found out about her, that's when she stopped staying with him. I told him at the time that our daughter was happy to see him as long as his gf wasn't around so I used to take her to his mum's house for a few hours then pick her up. I told him I didn't want my daughter staying in the same home as his gf as she didn't like how she made her feel and I wasn't going to accept it either. When he'd rented a flat, I didn't know he had someone else there. I found all of this out afterwards.

He would have been about 36/37ish when he first met his gf.

I think physical abuse is much clearer to see than emotional. Often people don't realise their being abused emotionally or mentally as there is no physical scars or pain. If I'd experienced physical abuse or discovered anything as sinister as this, I would end any form of contact for me and my child. I really hope your friend and daughter are doing well away from that monster.