I'm feeling alienated

[Dot82]

My daughter (14) has become exceptionally disrespectful over the last couple of years probably since around half way through y7. Her dad and I separated Christmas 2017 when he walked out unannounced once he'd began a relationship with an 18yo girl. At the time, my daughter resented him because it was obvious his gf was his priority. He lies and is very manipulative. He has only prioritised our daughter since his gf left him. Fast forward to now, he has filled my daughter's head with rubbish so much that she disrespects me constantly. If I ask her to pick up after herself or do her homework, she tells me I'm controlling her. She's even told me I shouldn't get involved with her schoolwork because it's none of my business. I've told her that whilst she's a child and her teachers email me to say she's not done as asked and could I encourage her to do better, I will still remind her. I have spoken to her dad about it but he will say anything to please her regardless of how daft it is. He bad-mouths her school in front of and to her and says I shouldn't keep telling her to do as she's asked. (Her school is actually really good and supportive.) He's also said that in his house, he picks up after her to save arguments so I should too and that I'm too argumentative for constantly asking her to do stuff. I don't confront or shout. It's a simple ask. I've learnt to close her bedroom door so I can't see that mess but when it extends to communal areas of my house, she should respect it. When she was with him during one call, he told me I was backward and a moron for not allowing her to just go to him because she had been told off for leaving my house in a complete mess. If she's ever told off or doesn't agree with me reminding her that she has homework, she calls her dad and complains. He always tells her what to say to me. There are comments he's said in the past and she repeats it now- things that she wouldn't naturally say. When she's at his, she always has the phone on loudspeaker so he can listen. He says it's not but occasionally I'll ask her a question and he'll answer forgetting he's not supposed to be listening in. He always reassures her that I'm being ridiculous. I even overheard them having a conversation both absolutely slagging me off. My dad died and I sold his house and he passed comment on that too during this conversation. I confronted them about it and he told her off for not telling him I had a security camera fitted. It was just a coincidence that I'd checked my camera at the time because my daughter should have been at his house. I'm not an unfair parent. My daughter is well looked after and gets plenty of attention. I'm at the end of my tether and I don't know what to do. Is this parental alienation?

Sympathies op, this situation sounds like an absolute nightmare and your ex sounds like he is immature, selfish, manipulative, disrespectful and a terrible parent.

With regards to your ex, you can’t control his actions, you can only control your reaction to him and this situation, and if you continue to be a consistent, sensible, kind, parent who is well regulated in terms of emotion, who is fair, reasonable, loving and open with communication, and you show love and respect to your dd, then don’t worry, your dd will eventually see the light.

So I would encourage you to keep your counsel. Grey rock your ex and keep communication with him to an absolute minimum. Communicate through a third party (not your dd) if you have to, Or have one phone or one WhatsApp account where all of your communication with him happens. Stick to clear, short messages with minimal emotion or detail. Don’t allow him to ring you up any time except in an emergency, Send one message a week on a Sunday morning to confirm arrangements for the week ahead.

Don’t allow him to occupy too much of your head space or take too much of your energy. The more traction you give him, the more he will make mischief.

Don’t bad mouth him in front of your dd. Be professional and neutral.

I know that is easier said than done when it feels like he is turning your dd against you, but the more you respond with alarm, anxiety, despair, the more he wins!

So give the impression at least, of not being particular perturbed, keep very calm, imagine a radio where you turn his voice right down so it can barely be heard, focus on your own life, and try and act strong, confident, cheerful, positive and be a great role model for your dd.

Hold your boundaries at home but pick your battles and be very loving towards your dd. Do not let this issue with your ex encroach on your relationship with her and certainly don’t resent or blame her for listening to her dad so much. She is absolutely desperate for his love but unfortunately she will find out in time what he is really like.

When she pushes back and says, “but dad says” just ignore that and quietly say, “what do you think?” Or “that’s fine, I prefer to do it this way because of x, y, z” or “that’s fine but doing well in this exam will give you more choices, it’s up to you, I want the very best for you.”

“But dad says the school is crap!”
“That’s fine but my belief is that …because of ,., (concrete example) what do you think?”
Dial down the conflict.

Hard though it is, do not let your dd occupy the middle space between you and your ex. Try and keep your relationship with her exclusive. In other words, don’t let the majority of your interactions with her be reactive ones to whatever your ex is doing, Ignore him as much as possible and take the initiative and make sure your dd and you have special things you do together

Also remember that “some* of your DD’s rebellion towards you will be nothing to do with your ex and just because she is a normal teenager trying to push boundaries, and that part of her, will eventually come back to you and she will return to being her usual pleasant self and appreciating everything you have done for her! So please don’t despair and hold strong.

It’s very normal that she has to challenge and reject you and your values for a while in order to individuate and become an adult and her own person.. Whatever you do, do not take this personally. The more bonded with you they are, the more force they have to use to push themselves off in to adulthood.

Focus on your own life, your job, your friends and hobbies. Let your dd see you enjoying life and your interests. Create a calm space for your both at home. It’s so tough op, but hang in there, stick to what you know is right for your dd, keep quietly plugging away being there for her and ignoring your ex as much as possible.

Give him minimal information about your life. He has no say in the sale of your late dad’s house for example. It’s nothing to do with him. Shut him down with a calm “that’s my business thanks” like you are not bothered.

Once you close your front door behind you, and your dd is inside, don’t allow your ex to encroach upon that space. And maybe insist that you only communicate by text with your dd when she is at his house. She can ring you any time but it has to he a private conversation. Don’t be drawn in to his dramas.

Completely separate from your ex, if your DD’s complaint is that you are too controlling, then that is your cue to step back a bit and give her more responsibility.

Stick to your chosen battles and boundaries but now is the time to adapt your parenting style now she is older, Let your parenting be more collaborative, parent alongside her, rather than top down (except if she is in actual danger). Ask her opinion, talk through choices. Agree on compromises and strategies whereby she can earn your trust. The more trust she earns, the more freedom she gets.

Encourage her to cook meals, be responsible for a food shop, she can start doing her own laundry? Put her in situations which are a little above her competence level, like trying to negotiate a lower price at a car boot sale. Go out for dinner at a fancy restaurant together. Give her a week’s household budget and ask har to manage it. If you can, bring her to your work and show her the ropes.

Keep strong 💪

Thank you so much for this ❤️
Lots of what you've suggested, I am already doing. I don't usually speak with him unless I really have to apart from a couple of weeks ago when I overheard their conversation. I did tell him that is none of his business and he shouldn't be discussing that with our daughter. When she is home with me, he tends to call a lot. The other day I went into my kitchen after having just put my PJ's on and her phone was propped up on the counter and there he was on video call. She'd nipped upstairs and left it. I wasn't happy about that.

Her idea of me being controlling is asking, nicely, if she's managed to get her homework done as it's due date is approaching or the cat needs feeding or can you pick your coat, bag, clothes etc up from the kitchen floor. She does occasionally cook and is very good at it, better than me in a lot of cases.

My daughter never says, "but dad says..." It's more a case of he'll either speak to me in front of her and say it or he will have made a comment in the past and obviously says it to her and she'll make exactly the same comment. It's usually something which attacks my character. He is a compulsive liar and his idea of the 'truth' of what has happened in the past is very distorted. He has no friends. Any friends he did have when we were together have completely washed their hands of him due to his behaviour.

My daughter and I were always really close. Ever since his gf split up with him, it's almost as if he has befriended our daughter and has now decided to prioritise her. He agrees with her on everything. One time she disrespected him and he went mad saying we need to be united in our approach to her being rude. I spoke to him about her behaviour because she'd complained to him and he rewarded her with a £170 shopping spree literally days before Christmas. That was on a day she should have been with me but chose not to until later on because I'd had the cheek to ask her to do a simple task. When she did come back, her attitude was awful. I refuse to 'buy' my daughters affection and I will most certainly not reward poor behaviour.

It's my daughter's birthday in a couple of weeks and she always wants me, her and her dad to go for a meal together. I've done it for the last few years and I am absolutely dreading it this year. It's always amicable but knowing what he's doing and having to sit there pretending to be happy is killing me inside. I only do it for her.

Outside of my house, whether at work or otherwise, I slap a smile on my face and lie to the world every day. I feel very lonely. I don't like to burden people with my concerns and I don't want anyone thinking badly of her. I do think I need to seek some professional guidance although I think I've more than likely got that from your post. I just don't understand why anyone, regardless of their relationship with the other parent, would want to destroy a relationship with their own child.

Also I forgot to add, I have never bad-mouthed him to my daughter. Anything I've ever said has been factual. In the past, he has called me whilst with my daughter calling me a moron and telling me I'm backward because I didn't agree with how he handled a situation. Whenever he does this, I hang up.

Reading your update op, this is even more horrific than I first thought! Your ex is truly despicable.

It’s lonely and demoralising enough when teens challenge you because it’s hurtful for one, and as you say, you want to protect their privacy, and you don’t want friends or family to think badly of them, so a lot of parents keep it to themselves.

But to have your ex use your DD’s very normal teenage behaviour and twist it against you is hideous beyond belief. He’s using his child as a strategic porn in a chess game against you. The phone incident sounds like it was almost calculated and is quite sinister.

I would definitely not respond to his calls when your dd is with you and try and knock that intrusion on the head. And come to a compromise around your dd speaking to her dad while she is at yours maybe?

You are doing everything right as a parent, Not buying affection and sticking to your boundaries. Hard though it is, as far as your dd is concerned, I think all you can do is hang in there and wait until she sees the light. Plus a few neutral comments such as “yes, your dad thinks this, but I happen to believe that”

She is confused at the moment but she will eventually be able to see your ex’s flaws and manipulation tactics.

Is there any way you could talk to your dd about not being together with your ex for her birthday? It is a very sensitive situation I know because she won’t understand that she is being used by him.

I’m not sure therapy is the right thing for parental alienation because therapists always aim for unity and seeing everyone’s pov; and your ex sounds abusive.

You do need professional support though. I hope others will be along shortly to advise 💐

That is plain nasty and you are quite right to hang up and limit all communication.

Despicable is one way of putting it. It really is a horrific position to be in. The whole situation drains me. I'm holding onto to the opinion that one day my daughter will realise what is going on and wake up. It's just really difficult at the moment as I struggle to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Thank you again for taking the time to respond to me. It really means a lot.

Tell your DD now that you won’t be accompanying them for a birthday meal as it’s not appropriate due to animosity towards you.

Sadly she will have to face the consequences of her actions.

My heart goes out to you. Your daughter does not have the maturity to see what her father is really like but once he meets a new woman he will unfortunately drop your daughter like a hot potato and she will see you are the constant parent in her life.

This exact thing happened to me and I am now estranged from my adult son after years of abuse from him, encouraged by his father.I followed professional advice which I bitterly regret.

Whatever you do, do not attend that meal. Your daughter mustn’t see you meekly accepting abuse from him or going out for meals with him after he’s abused you. At 14 there isn’t really any need for any contact with him at all. Get a parenting app and block him on everything else and do not engage with him ever at drop offs.

Do not contact your daughter while she’s with him and if you must, communicate via text only. Insist she takes calls from him upstairs privately. All contact between you and him must stop.If she repeats his accusations defend yourself appropriately.

You're probably frightened to discipline her properly out of fear of abuse from her dad or that she might decide to go and live with him.
That causes an imbalance of power and with an adult encouraging contempt towards you it’s a recipe for estrangement.

She might vote with her feet. A six month stint at dads now is better than a lifetime of estrangement.

I highly doubt anyone sane enough would go nowhere near him. The girl he was with used him for what she needed then dropped him as soon as she'd gotten what she wanted. She was a very clever girl. And when I sat girl, she was 18 years old. She would be unkind to my daughter who at the time was between 7-10yo. If I ever confronted him about the things she had done to my daughter, he would brush it under the carpet. For a long time, my daughter refused to stay with him and the times shee did stay, he'd often make excuses as to why she couldn't.

Knowing my daughter, I am shocked that she is behaving this way towards me. I am the one constant she has had her whole life and she knows it. She would say things such as my dad left this house but he didn't leave me. Whilst that is partly true and he still maintained payments, there were times when she would be asking me as a 6/7yo where he was and I couldn't give her an answer because I didn't know. After telling him this, he told me I should just tell her he was working away. Even when he told us about his new g/f in the end, he told us her name was something different to what he'd told his family. He's very odd and I kick myself every day for being stupid enough to have a child with him.

This is what frightens me. I could send him a text explaining why I don't want to go or speak to him and he either shows her the messages or tells her. All she sees is mum has not agreed to what I wasn't then once again, I'm the bad guy ruining her life as she likes to say. Only yesterday, she was telling me that I don't like her dad but he doesn't hate you. She can't see what he is doing because he's not openly saying I hate your mum. By the way, I've not said to her that I hate her dad (I do with every bone in my body) I just said that we will never be friends, which is true. I will get the backlash and have to listen (and not for the first time) about how her poor dad is trying to be nice and I'm being nasty and messing it up. She did want us to spend part of Christmas with us both but that's when I said absolutely not. I told her okay her birthday is her day but Christmas is everyone's and that is overstepping my boundaries way too much. Obviously I was the bad guy there too.

I'm already the worst person in the world. If I told her dad without her knowing, he would not play along. She shows her text messages and tells her everything, with a twist obviously, to try and paint himself in a good light. As soon as she hears I'm the one who has made that decision, it would be worse for me. She's already told me I'm ruining her life. That was because I'd asked if she had any homework and she doesn't want me to do that because it gives her anxiety. I know she's not doing it so I'm leaving her to it and letting her school deal with her. She wouldn't dare speak to them in the way she speaks to me.

No, you tell your DD that you won’t be going anywhere with her father and an age appropriate truth of why. “The things he says about me are untrue and unkind, the same reason as we why separated.”

She’s 14 not 4.

I'd tell her to stop with the slagging you off to her dad, as it's disrespectful and bitchy and you honestly thought better of her than to be taken in by his bullshit. That he clearly gives zero fucks about her education and he is more interested in ruining her relationship with you than he is about parenting her and preparing her for the future, and you are fed up of his interference. That he clearly still has feelings for you to be so obsessed, but he needs to move on, as it's getting pretty cringy now, aside from the harm it's doing.

Tell her that there is only so much you will put up with, and a decent father would not be so horrible and unsupportive about her relationship with her mother. That you've done nothing to him, and you've tried to support their relationship for her benefit, despite him clearly having a sexual interest in teenagers. That it must be difficult for her to get her head round, but you weren't expecting her to take so much of it out on you.

Yes I think an age appropriate explanation like this is good 👍

Also, do you need to inform your ex that you are not attending the birthday dinner? Surely you only need to inform your dd?

If you feel you have to go now because you have promised your dd op, because the trust between you is important, then get through the evening as best as you can, and a week after your DD’s birthday, sit her down and explain, very calmly, why you won’t be attending any more joint events with her dad in future.

You can explain why her relationship with him is totally separate to yours.

And maybe ask her how she would respond to a friend who said untrue and unkind things about her?

You've already had great advice. I just wanted to echo that you have no reason to go for your daughter's birthday meal with your abusive ex. Please just say to your DD that it won't be possible because of your ex's hostility towards you. She absolutely knows he is abusive. She doesn't want to be on the receiving end of his abuse. She is watching and learning from how you manage him, even if it doesn't feel like it.

If a parent is frighted of their child’s judgement, allegations or rage they cannot effectively parent. There is appeasement and shame instead of respect and authority. The child knows this and learns to weaponise guilt and shame.

You cannot talk yourself out of a frightened nervous system. Which is why it’s so important to stop all contact with him regardless of what your daughter thinks. You and under no obligation to absorb his abuse just because your daughter will think it’s mean if you don’t.

It can be very difficult to claw back authority once you’ve lost it. If this is the case it’s not the end of the world if she spends some time at dads without you as a buffer.

Hi op,
you can get through the bday meal it’s only a couple of hours, don’t rise to his silly comments note them down and we can laugh at him later. Keep saying ‘let’s change the subject and talk about our lovely special birthday girl’ ask her what her goals are for when she is 15, etc etc. all the focus on her. I’d do this for my son if he asked me/wanted it.

with everything else, you’re doing everything right. Don’t bend over backwards justifying to yourself why you need your daughter to be tidy. It’s a normal rule and a normal power struggle. All mums and teens have this issue. You can’t control the chaos or what’s said in his house, you can only keep your own side of the street clean.

I've literally done all of this. She's very vocal especially when she's with him. This morning, while she was here, she tried being disrespectful towards her dad because she wasn't ready to go when he said and I told her to stop even though she's allowed to do it to me. I don't know whether I'm stupid for not allowing her to do it to him to give him a taste of his own medicine when he allows and encourages her to do it to me but I won't drag myself down to the same level as him. There is nobody on this planet except his mum who is a friend of his. I don't want him turning her into him so nobody likes her. She knows this because this is the reason she doesn't want anybody to know how she actually behaves.

There is no way in hell I’d have got involved with correcting her disrespect towards him. Let them manage their own relationship.

Of course he doesn't think he should parent her - or that you should, and that ordinary parenting is 'controlling,' because he sees teenage girls as potential girlfriends. He's treating her as an equal because he sees her as one (an equal, not a girlfriend, I'm not for a moment suggesting that!!) When you tell her to do her homework or feed the cat, it reminds him that you see her as a little girl, and probably makes him feel a bit tawdry about his life choices.

Treating a child like an adult, adultification, is not good for her mental health. I'm so sorry OP but it might be worth having a private and confidential word with the designated safeguarding lead at her school, explaining that her DF is back in her life and is treating her far too much like an adult including trying to get her aligned with him against you, and asking them to keep an eye on her.

You have to completely stop interacting with him, OP. No calls or texts with him, no calls with her when he’s in the room, no correcting her behaviour towards him. For things like the birthday dinner, give her a short, truthful explanation - “You’ve heard the way he speaks to me - I’m not going to sit through an evening of that, I’m afraid.” Practice saying this in front of the mirror until you can do it with no more emotion than a rueful smile.

You are never going to win at his games - you have to stop playing them.

I’ve made this comment before and been ripped apart for it but my stance is the same. Let her go there. Let her live there, tell her you love her but can see she is happier there and will allow her to be happy. Tell her she is welcome any time as long as she is willing to be respectful. Let them see how easy (not) it is without you holding it all together. Part of the reason he wants her there is to hurt you. Show him that it doesn’t matter (of course it does but pretend) that all you want is her happiness and that she can have that there. I am almost positive she’ll be back when he starts being a twat because he has realised you aren’t upset or he gets another girlfriend. As for child maintenance, it suck’s that you would have to pay it if you’ve been financially supporting her but you’ll be free to work more and work on yourself without her disrespect and all the upset this is causing. She no doubt costs you money you don’t even realise that you’re spending so it’ll probably work out similarly to paying maintenance anyway.

I really feel for you OP, my DD is 10 and I’m already dealing with “why do you want to run off and pretend you don’t have a daughter?” because weekends when she’s not with me I’m seeing my boyfriend. EXHB was very abusive and I’m being very delicate about introducing DD and BF, EXHB introduced our DD to his new GF within days of meeting and they now live together, apparently me wanting to take things slow equals me pretending I don’t have a daughter. He only speaks to DD, so drop offs/pick ups are facilitated via her, even though I refuse and if she says dad has said this I’ll then message him. He then replies via DD. It makes me feel so conflicted, because I genuinely wish I’d never met the man, but then I wouldn’t have DD who I love with all my heart, but am genuinely scared she’ll start not wanting to come and stay here because her dad buys her so much shite which makes his house seem like the land of milk and honey. It’s rubbish, and I really feel for you. No advice but we’re in this together xx

I totally agree….saying you aren’t happy in his company is perfectly fine for your daughter to hear. You are divorced