Ok, i know this has been a great debate many times, (smacking v non-smacking) but im bringing it up again because im having great problems sticking to the non-smacking!!!!!

[QueenofVenus]

A very VERY persistently naughty subborn obnoxious child, who does not respond to talking, rewards etc, what can you do?? He is actually, a very clever and caring child too, (he is nearly 8), but even his teachers have said they have rarely experienced behavior like it! Please feel free to give me an option that doesnt involve me smacking his backside the next time he tells his teacher to "shut up, your boring me" or swinging on his bedroom curtains and riping them and the pole down (for the hundredth time)

find something he likes, no LOVES.

tell him that next time he does something that breaks yoru rules (these are individual..you need to sit down and between you both decide what behaviour requires what sanction)
you will remove whatever it is he loves for a period of 1day/1 week/etc

you can decide amongst you both what gets removed for what behaviour.

you need to be firm and NEVER bak down if you have given out a sanction.

as for the "shut up your boring me" ask the school if they have a spare classroom. if so next time he says it take him to the classroom and make him sit on a chair in the middle of the floor.
he isn't to be allowed to touch anything, he will be alone and bored.
let him stay there for about 15 minutes, by the time he is allowed back to the classroom he will be begging to do his work and listen to his teacher.

QoV your sons behaviour sounds quite extreme to be honest. Saying to a teacher "shut up, you're boring me" suggests that he has a lack of respect for adults (and probably his peers) and has not yet learned the appropriate behaviour in different situations. How does he speak to/relate to adults and children outside school.

What does the school propose to do about his behaviour?

Are you always consistent in the way you deal with his misbehaviour at home?

How clear are the boundaries that are set at both home and school?

Do you always follow through if you give him a "cause and effect" statement. ie. if you do x, y will happen.

I think it would help if you could give us a few more details about his behaviour generally.

Well i believe smacking helps because i have smacked him once or twice (which i really dont like doing) and it works, he is warned he will get a smack if he carries on, and then if he does persist, then he gets a short sharp slap on either the back of his hand or his leg. He instantly stops and goes to sulk, this seems to give him a few minutes to think, and he comes back better, not great, but alot better. Mamazon, his school have tried sitting him in a room by himself, he likes it, he sits there picking his nose and swinging his legs singing to himself, they have at times had a struggle to get hi out and back to class

But why not warn him that something else will happen - like Mamazon says, withdrawing something that really matters to him.

In my opinion, smacking a child only teaches them that smacking is an appropriate way of resolving situations, which it obviously isn't. Imagine if we adults used smacking each other as a way of resolving disputes, or getting our own way in the workplace!

Smacking may be a quick fix, but does nothing to teach your son about modifying his own behaviour in the long term.

Well i never threaten what im not prepared/able to carry through. He has been taught from very very early age to remember his manners, to always show respect to an adult/s he has a younger brother of 5 and a younger sister of 2 and they BOTH have remarkable manners, they rarely need reminding and they rarely forget!! My eldest however, couldnt care less, and seems to find rules and manners dont apply to him. Even when i try and kindly or firmly remind him to say thankyou, he just walks of and says "whatever" he has been to see a child psychologist and she says she truly doesnt feel has anything 'wrong' she believes hes a bright and clever boy, apparently he just thinks he vcan do what he wants! grrrrrr I have to admit alot of the time, its very tempting to slap his backside!

Buy him a games console.

Buy him a big clear plastic lockable tub to put it in.

Use them together.

Does he go out to play? Ground him harshly!

Smacking teaches that if you dont like what someone is doing you should hit them.
its really not a very good method of discipline, and usually shows that the parent has lost control.

Have teh school asked for the help of the lEa's behavioural team? they are specialists that will come in and observe yoru DS and ten give the school some handy tips on dealing with his behaviour whilst at school, they will also help with some tips for you at home.

Smacking honestly doesn't help.

Persistance, authority and patience do.

when he is remnded to say thank you and he ignores it...go up and take back whatever it was he was given.

he gets NO treats until he can behave appropriatly.

What are you going to do when he comes home and has smacked someone because they are not behaving as he likes????

I don;t use physical violence on my kids and have taught them that it is wrong full stop - and so they don't hit each other, me or anyone else.

That is why I don;t smack - not sure what to do about behaviourial issues although getting hi something he really wants and then taking it away is a good idea or clearing his bedroom of everything except his bed and then letting him have things back as his behaviour improves may be a route you could take.

It's good that your consistent with your sanctions, and interesting that his siblings don't have the same issues, although I don't think that this is a "manners" issue in terms of pleases and thank yous.

I also don't think that the psychologist saying that she doesn't think anything is wrong, except that "he's a bright and clever boy, apparently he just thinks he can do what he wants" is very helpful. I would second Mamzon's suggestion to ask the school to involve either an educational psychologist, or the behavioural support service.

Thinking that he can do what he wants is impacting on his both his relationships and his education, and therefore, needs to be sorted out as soon as possible.

Ooops you're

in conjunction with repremanding ( whatever method you chose) i firmly believe that sanctioning good behaviour is important too - i know it sounds obvious - but i have been there, where you getinto a cycle of shout, shout, shout and no, no, no. and you forget to say "wow well done" or " good boy" or " i am so proud of you.

many forms of punishment - esp mumnsetters will suggest the reward system - but i firmly believe in both.

good behaviour should be rewarded - no matter how small. stopping at a road - being good in school, doing a good piece of work at school.

whilst negative behaviour should be sanctioned too ( grounding, take away things, earlier bedtime by 15 mins each night if they don't fgo when told)

the latter sanctioning for bad behaviour - the punishments should be over small amounts of time, its so easy when you are annoyed to shout " RIGHT GROUNDED FOR A MONTH" but after two days they might as well be naughty - becuase what dos it matter - they won't see daylight FORRRRRREVER anyway. so make the punishments over a short time span.

I would also suggest liaising with school over speciasl pieces of work.

My boy had difficulty simply liking school - he liked to play!! but he hated the work - so i went to the teacher and asked that if we did some poems or drawings or anything to improve his concentration - could she make an effort to put it on the wall? and she agreed

maybe somethng like this?

the whole backbone of enforcing or reinforcing good behaviour is consistancy.

This sounds like there is more lurking here than the psychologist said. I don't believe that this is what healthy happy boys do.

I would sit down with a cup of coffee and really really think about this boy?

Has he always been like this or did something change suddenly? If so, has something happened to upset or frighten him?

Are the problems worse at school? And when he is bad at home, could it be related to having had a bad day at school/your bringing up his behaviour at school?

Could he be struggling/afraid of not coping academically. When children say 'I am bored' they often mean 'I don't understand'.

What is he like with his peers? Does he find social interaction difficult? Could there be a bullying problem?

Or could there be something about him that means the social situation at school/in the classroom/the playground is particularly difficult to him? (thinking Asperger spectrum- which can be very mild, but still make a classroom situation daunting)

How does he get on at home with his siblings? Is there anything about his home situation that could be upsetting him?

Also, think about what he's like when he's good. What does he like doing? How does he like interacting with adults? Is there any adult that he particularly gets on with/respects who might be able to influence him?

I would agree with finding him something he loves, but not just because you can then take it away when he misbehaves. More because everybody needs to have times when they feel good about themselves and doing something you love is a good way of achieving this.

And he needs to do something positive with another adult.

Custardo's advice is right, positive reinforcement.

I can't stop thinking about that swinging from curtains thing. And doing it repeatedly. If you see another psychologist, I would make sure you mention this; I have a feeling that it could just be relevant.

Cory, you wrote what I was thinking!

Has he been seen by an educational psychologist, one employed by the local seduaction authority? I know it sounds wrong, but some independent p's are not all that great.

What kind of school does he go to? Are all the other children meek and mild (and they have little experience of dealing with spirited children), do they just expect children todo whatever not very interexting work they are given and obey? He could genuinely be bored.

My son is 9 with Asperger's, and we've made loads of significant progress with his behaviour issues by tapping into his obsessive interests and using them as motivators. His reward charts are themed to Star Wars and Lord Of The Rings, he has to earn Dr Who time by positive behaviour, and small achievements are rewarded with eg individual Top Trumps cards on his current theme. Together we've worked out a very complex reward structure based on earning tokens which are then converted into pocket money, and he responds to it because for him EVERYTHING he succeeds at, however small, has to be acknowledged if you want to move forwards.

He doesn't respond to punishment very well, it's only in the last year or so that he's been able to equate a punishment with the preceding behaviour, but that's taken many years of training, talking and social stories to reach that point. You may need to remember that some problems can't be solved quickly and you'll have to be patient.

There is always an answer to inappropriate behaviour, always something that with work for a child, but you've got to find it first and that's the hard part.

I'd start with rewarding anything positive in whatever way you can (I find certificates work well for J - print your own here: www.senteacher.org/wk/certificates.php) and help him to see that behaving positively brings rewards.

If you have real concerns that there may be more to his behaviour than just plain naughtiness, see your GP and ask for a referral to a developmental paed.

Excellent post Cory.

This may sound crazy, but he sounds like a bright boy, and maybe he is a little bored at school.

Have you talked to him about how his actions are making the teacher feel?

Consequences (good and bad) are all about how him, and could just be reinforcing his attitude that the world revolves around him.

Saying things like "You're boring me" must be very hard for the teacher to take - it could be worth a try to get him to think about how his actions are affecting others rather than only about how they will affect himself (ie. smack/ isolated etc)

hiya everyone - had to go out, thanku all for your posts - been sat reading and appreciate MANY good points, ds HAS always been like this, he would scream blue murder, red in the face and biting me or grandma at 10 months old! The school have had the LEA in, and until the end of last school year before he moved to juniors, he was on the IEP. But im still told by everyone that they feel he doesnt have any kind of autism, or syndrome, he just blatantly has no respect for authority. I have to say i disagree, i know im no child psychologist, but i do feel he has 'something' - i hate saying that about my own child, but i know him, at one point they did 'consider' aspergers, which now i have read up on it, i cant help but feel they may have been right, but just a very very very mild form. Im not sure, i guess i will have to try my hardest to stop smacking, keep reinforcing the boundries and rules and persist in trying to encourage good behavior etc etc. Thanks for all the help and advice everyone

It may be that he has some of the attributes of Aspergers, but not enough for a diagnosis. You say the school had the LEA in - was that a behaviour support team-type person, or someone from the Autistic Spectrum Support team?
You could try getting him referred for further investigation via your GP if the school aren't able to do any more.

Did your son have a full assessment for Asperger's, QOV? If not, perhaps you should push for one - it's easy for the professionals to say they don't think he's on the spectrum but without all the relevant testing they can't be certain. If he has been assessed but it was inconclusive, you'd be within your rights to request a second opinion assessment.

My son was 7 and a half when he eventually got his dx but we'd known something was afoot from about two. It took us all that time to convince the professionals that his problems were real - like you, we read everything we could get our hands on about AS and knew without doubt that he had it, whereas they barely spent any time with him and only had snapshots to go by.

In the meantime, it might help to use ASD focused strategies for working with him rather than regular ones. 'Normal' methods won't work for a child with AS but the autism tools will have an impact on anyone, whethre he has a dx or not.

Have you been into school to discuss his behaviour? It sounds as if he should have an IEP and a home/school agreement where you work together and are consistent. I should sit down and discuss it with him and have a rewards system and boundries. Cory's post is excellent.

QoV - do any of these indicators strike a chord with you?

Oppositional defiant disorder