Parents of difficult kids help me please!

[wherearetheturrets]

Dd1 (14) was a dream (for parenting) as a child. Calm, obedient, hardly any tantrums.

dd2 (3.5) is confident, fiery, willfull and very particular. I genuinely feel at a total loss as to how to ‘control’ her behaviour. I believe in being understanding of their lack of emotion regulation and their need to have some control of themselves etc. but I am struggling so much to keep that in mind with dd2. gentle (not permissive!) parenting was easy with dd1 because she was so compliant. I had the calm space to explain things to her. Dd2 just doesn’t even want to listen to what I have to say. Even when she’s calmed down, she doesn’t want to talk about the bad behaviour, or her feelings that led to it.

All children are different and have different needs, and need to be parented differently depending on their needs. And I just feel lost like I have no idea what kind of parenting she needs. I try to let her have control where I can (let her pick her clothes, or what plate she wants her lunch on etc). But it just never seems enough, like she just wants to have total control and anything less is just tantrum inducing. I’m exhausted trying to deal with her day to day :( I don’t want to dampen her fire, but I also feel like I can’t cope with it either.

would really appreciate any words of wisdom, suggestions or perspectives. Thank you so much for any help!

The pda society .org.uk have some good parenting tips with children that display behaviours like this. Our eldest was easy but our second DD was really hard work, she subsequently had a asd and adhd diagnosis in her tween years..we had to change our style of communication with her to reduce “demands” as when she perceived anything to be a demand it’s really anxiety inducing for her and she can’t cope.

Even when she’s calmed down, she doesn’t want to talk about the bad behaviour, or her feelings that led to it. My DS is like this. I do find him really difficult in this sense, so no real advice but it’s really hard.

www.additudemag.com/how-to-deal-with-an-explosive-child-tips/amp/

Why would they want to talk about their behaviour? They don’t get it do they? Far too young.

All dc need clear firm boundaries. They like to know where they stand so they often need clear guidance in what to wear. They cannot choose a summer dress when it’s snowing so give no real choice and don’t accept arguments about it.

Not a dc like this are sen either. They are pushing boundaries but aren’t clear what the boundaries are! Make clear your expectations and don’t keep talking about how they feel after they have a tantrum. Tell them how it makes you feel and it’s got to stop. Stop giving overwhelming choice because it’s not necessary. Cut out points of conflict. You have to say what you mean and mean what you say.

Thanks for replies and website suggestions, I’ll take a look 👍

@OhDear111i know they don’t get everything, but they absolutely do get some things. So for example the other day when she had a tantrum because she wanted her lunch on a different plate (literally went from me putting the plate down in front of her - a blue plate which is the colour she often asks for, but wasn’t the specific blue plate she wanted - there was no quiet complaint, just to immediate screaming about how that wasn’t the plate she wanted, throwing herself on the floor, refusing to take a breath to even just ask me for the plate she wanted). I took her to the step (where I sit with her until she calms down), she was hitting me and head butting me. I tell her I won’t let her hit me, and put my hands in the way to stop her.

When she finally calmed down, she didn’t want to talk about how hitting isn’t okay or that she could have just asked me if she could please have a different plate. And she does understand those things.

absolutely agree about trying to cut out points of conflict. And next time I keep in mind to ask her to come and pick her own plate. But it feels like she is like this with everything and it’s very difficult to avoid those points of conflict constantly.

and then I don’t even know how to deal with the explosive behaviour when it happens, I don’t want to let her get away with awful behaviour but I genuinely don’t know what to do about it. She’s bloody lovely the rest of the time, kind and caring and sweet and funny. So she’s not just a terrible kid, but it’s my job to guide her behaviour and I don’t know how to do that with her when she won’t listen to me. I hold boundaries, if I say ‘do that again and you’ll lose that toy’ and she does whatever it is again, I take the toy. So I’m not without holding boundaries, and meaning what I say. But that doesn’t seem enough I guess, so I feel like I’m missing something but I don’t know what.

OP are you saying your 2nd DD is 3.5yrs old? Still a toddler? TBH, I think it is more common for a toddler to be a royal PITA than a dream! I'm not sure a big old chat about her awfulness after the event is going to go down well at this age either. I'm not really sure that they have the ability to self reflect that well at that age.

Three questions:

What consequences do you have in place for behaviour that you don't want to see at home? I think it has to be more impactful than just take a toy, which is presumably one of very, very many.

What expectations do you set for behaviour in advance?

What behaviour do you praise her for?

It is really easy to slip into a pattern where the only reaction a child gets is negative, so in order to get a reaction they just keep at it. I remember with DS1, who went through a really grim toddler phase, some helpful MN soul advised me to start dishing out praise for good behaviours and I remember he was so foul at the time, the only thing I could find to praise him for was how nicely he had drunk from his sippy cup!!!! I remember the look of surprise on his face and it really struck me how we'd got stuck in a negative spiral. That small step was the start of breaking the cycle (he is in his 20s now and I'm delighted to say no longer throws plates of food or screams uncontrollably because his shoes are the wrong colour)

That's the other thing to remember - this too shall pass - and quicker than you think when you are living through it.

Hope that is of some help.

Leave her on the floor and walk away. You respond. Dont respond. What would she choose if you ask her? Just say 3 plates are hers. Only these three. No arguments - choose one. Tantrum - walk away if in your house.

We saw parents trying to talk to a tantrumming dc at the weekend. It’s hopeless. Dc cannot take it in and listen. So if she wants her plate, let her have it. But not if she screams to get it.

Also, do you ever say “be quiet”. “I’ll talk to you when you are quiet” and then walk away? Maybe I was a monster mum, but I did this on the rare occasions mine had a tantrum. I used the word “no” too and meant it. Try not engaging at all.

A three year old cannot discuss their feelings

🤔

What book have you been reading?

My eldest who is now 12. Was diagnosed pda at 9. She was pretty easy but sensitive and arfid like eating disorder. My 2nd who is now 4. Was diagnosed at 3 with asd with a possibility of adhd too. She sounds a lot like the op child. Its a lot of stress and constant work.

My DD2 was very challenging. She had some trauma when she was young, and a psychologist explained 'hyper vigilance' to me. Look it up if it might apply to your child.
It was sad but very helpful to realise how much the trauma affected her.
Over time her behaviour improved as she developed better confidence and began to trust the outside world. Things were noticeably better by the time she was in secondary. She is now an amazing teen - very talented and plays sport at a high level. This - and lots of love and boundaries - is how she found herself. But it was a long, hard "phase".
Fortunately we were tightly bonded, so i bounced back after each and every episode - but it was exhausting. It was also hard for her sibling. Really, really hard for all of us.
Sometimes i would think of her as wildlife. It helped me understand her wildness.

You have my deepest empathy -- you sounds like a wonderful, caring mum. At some point, perhaps find a good child psychologist and see what they think.

In the example you give, I'm not sure I would have taken her to the step while she was mid-tantrum. Probably best just to leave her until she calms down. Was she tired or hungry at the time? Rather than say you'll try to offer a choice of plate next time, it's better to spot underlying triggers if you can - as in, was it really just about the plate?

I think it's worth recognising that tantrums are normal 3 year old behaviour. Your DD1 may not have had them but lots of toddlers do.

Also, try not to compare with DD1 if you can possibly avoid it. I had two easy children followed by a tricky one so I do understand, but I don't think it's a helpful mindset.

Hang in there OP. It will get easier. My tricky DC3 is now a lovely teen!

My dc2 has an adhd diagnosis and some pda & autistic traits.

One question which I have found really useful is “what would you do if you were the mummy ?” It’s neutral enough that he isn’t getting a telling off but it encourages reflection.

For him there is a real disconnect between what he knows (we don’t hit, we can ask nicely) and what he is able to control about his behaviour. Making a massive fuss about the fact he has got his own way when he does ask nicely helps with reflection.

Finally, thinking outside the box, i would really strongly recommend a daily multivitamin plus additional zinc and magnesium. When we’re in fight or flight our body uses trace minerals differently and mineral deficiency can lead to emotional dysregulation so it becomes a bit of a vicious cycle.

Thanks so much for replies, empathy and things for me to think about :)

I think for the most part I’m exhausted from dealing with the very frequent outbursts, and feeling guilty and like a failure because I feel like I don’t know what to do about it and what I’m doing isn’t working and doesn’t feel good. I’m shouting a lot which I really hate (and doesn’t help!) and it’s just because I’m failing to keep my cool in the stress of the situations. What I’m doing isn’t good parenting, and I care so very much about being a good parent.

The child is 3.5 - I think you need to reset your expectations

Give her a chance to express herself and also check the e numbers in her diet prior to her explosions

Otherwise this too shall pass!

She is exploding because she doesn't have the skill set to manage what she is going through. That is completely normal because she is 3.5. When she is tantruming just make sure she is safe and let her get on with it. Might be worth reading up a bit on pda just so you can keep it in the back of your mind. Also might be useful to look for patterns to the tantrums to see if there are common factors e.g. Is she tired, overstimulated, hungry, somewhere busy etc. There is something called an abc chart which can be useful where you write down what happend directly before and after the event to see if there is a trigger, or a reward which is embedding it. Be aware that rewards can be very child specific and if they are very sociable then some types of punichment/consequence can actually accidentally be a reward e.g giving them attention when they are having a meltdown.

Bottom up rather than top down - you need to help her build the skills and encourage the behaviours you want rather than trying to squash the behaviours you don't want.

So for the plate example, the missing skill is probably a combination of cognitive flexibility (being able to accept changes from what she expected) and emotional regulation (not ramping up and up and up when this happens). Of course both things are still in development at 3.

In the moment, you just deescalate, keep everyone safe, reiterate rules as you said e.g. I won't let you hit, and taking some slow deep calm breaths in front of them often helps because a lot of children will automatically copy which helps them calm down too.

Don't address the behaviour in the moment apart from to control the environment and keep everyone safe (physically stop hitting/block access to the other plates etc) you could name the feeling. Try to avoid the word "but" eg "I know you wanted the other plate, but this is the one you have." Just focus on calming down. You don't need to persuade her to accept the other plate as once she's calmer she probably will accept it, you just have to go through the strop first. If the argument was about something like asking nicely, you might have success after she is calmer getting her to ask in a slightly less rude way and that's a win, but getting through the outburst is a win anyway. Don't expect to be able to use it as a teaching moment.

Outside the moment, you can work on things like emotion regulation by talking about feelings (at every bloody opportunity ), when you're playing with Playmobil people or toy animals act out their feelings dramatically, try looking for books about feelings, Daniel Tiger has some good episodes, watch Inside Out. Any time you have a feeling, narrate what you're doing to help with it, e.g. "I'm feeling a bit cross so I'm going to take a break from this and do something else". The How to Talk books are good too, you might have read them before, they are worth a re-read.

Cognitive flexibility can be practised with role play where you swap roles, like switching between being customer and cashier in shops/restaurants (also try adding things like I'm an angry customer, you're a scared cashier) games where the rules change like Simon Says. Don't let her win all the time or avoid games with losing, but make it very silly when someone loses and model losing in good grace. Make it very quick to get back into the game after losing. This is easier to do when there are more than just two of you, but you could start out where you're the loser if you want. IME it's incredibly helpful to get the message in there bit by bit that losing, making mistakes etc is not the end of the world.

Because you're doing all the teaching outside the moment it's a bit more proactive effort, so it can also help to try and keep a bit of a diary to keep track, see if there are patterns, there might be something you can trace to things like diet, sleep, time of day, toilet needs etc which helps with managing it.

Also you obviously can't work on everything at once, so it can help to make a list of your 5 or so top issues and then think about what underlying skills might need strengthening. If I have no idea I've asked chatgpt before as a starting point e.g. "In child development, what skill underlies the ability to..." And then what the normal developmental timescale is for that. Then I fact check it on more reputable websites, but for example I'd never have known the phrase cognitive flexibility - and knowing that lets me Google games and activities to try to strengthen that.

When you know which skills need more support you can also move the goal closer to her a bit. So for example if she struggles with unexpected things, you can let her come into the kitchen before dinner and choose her plate, or if you know what her favourite is, give her a heads up e.g. DD, I know you like green but the green plate is in the wash, we have yellow today. Or you might decide you're sick of plate arguments and swap all plates for the same colour.

Good luck! Other books I love are When Your Kids Push Your Buttons, for processing your own stuff, and Big Baffling Behaviours, which is good for spotting the moments where their "wise owl brain" has flown away and also identifying when it's back. (Obviously this is a metaphor!)

@BertieBottsthat is really informative and very helpful thank you so much for taking the time ❤️ I actually asked chat gpt for some tips today and found that really helpful too, so will definitely be asking for info about child development (I actually have a degree in psychology so not completely lacking in knowledge about developmental psychology, it’s just foggy nowadays).

I’ve been trialling walking away based on someone’s suggestion here. I make sure to tell her I’m nearby if she needs me or when she’s ready to come to me, and reconnect with her when she does, and that’s actually been working really well so far. Tantrums that usually could last 30-45mins, down to 10 minutes or so!! Fingers crossed it continues

so thank you all for taking the time to comment, empathise, suggest etc it’s really appreciated

My DD2 (4) doesn’t have a strong willed personality interestingly (will do what she’s told most of the time etc), but when she has a meltdown we have learned that we just need to leave her to it. We are lucky we can do this, as she doesn’t hurt herself or others, she just yells (very loudly) and protests. All the ‘empathising with emotions’ send her into a rage even more. All I say to her is, “Come and see me when you feel ready” (even that annoys her sometimes!) then I leave her to it. She also doesn’t want to discuss it afterwards. I just say, “I am glad you have calmed down now. Next time if you feel xxx, do xxxx instead”, then that’s the end of the conversation.
I do raise my voice as a parent at unacceptable behaviour like hitting, as I don’t believe gentle parenting is very effective for us in our family for behaviour like that. DD2 bit DD1 badly last year when she was 3, and I did raise my voice at her. She hasn’t done it since.

My dd was a bit like this. I used to just let her scream it out, shrug and say fine. E.g if she refused to put shoes on, I would just pick the shoes up and walk out the door. Once she realised she'd have to walk barefoot in the rain she wanted her shoes on. If she didn't want a cheese and that was all we has, once she'd calmed down she'd realise she could either leave it and be hungry or eat it and not be. I wouldn't feel like you have to manage it or teach her differently. She is learning to deal with her feelings. It is a bit tiring but it will get better. Obviously deal with bad behaviours that might come with it. My dd wasn't adverse to giving us a kick if she was really mad, or later throwing toys and banging doors.

^ this

and remember Don’t try to control her
you cannot control free spirits like this.
you can only guide them.

• get some loop ear plugs. For you. And possibly for her too. Reduces the sensory overload.

Thank you, yeah ear plugs or defenders would be a good shout, I get sensory overload ALL THE TIME and it definitely makes me more snappy and quick to anger. I’ve also got a teenager and a 2.5 year old so our house is really very loud with constant noise and chatter