Naomi Fisher's "When the naughty step makes things worse" - a disappointing, out of touch book, full of cliches

[ParentOfOne]

I have read Naomi Fisher's "When the naughty step makes things worse" and found it hugely disappointing.

Last year I made a post that was very critical of needlessly strict schools like Mossbourne Academy in Hackney https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5225872-mossbourne-academies-investigations-into-alleged-emotional-harm-and-abuse-why-are-needlessly-strict-academies-unaccountable and found Fisher's comments on that very insightful:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/naomi-fisher-psychologist_vexatious-complaints-over-the-last-few-weeks-activity-7274398835781648386-shxo/

The book, however, was a disappointment, because the whole message boils down to: don't stress out, a lot of things you think matter actually don't, giving in to your child isn't the end of the world, and most things will ultimately sort themselves out in the end.

She makes many examples like letting your child have another sweet or letting them sleep in your bed isn't the end of the world, not worth a meltdown, and the whole premise is that everything will magically sort itself out in the end.

Well, what if it doesn't? On this, the book is completely silent.

I fully agree that picking your fights is important, but the author presents no compelling evidence that everything will sort itself out and that these methods won't produce nasty, spoilt, entitled brats. "Don't worry, it worked for me and for some patients of mine" is not exactly a very scientific approach.

I can certainly think of a few cases in my extended family and circle of acquaintances where this kind of gentle parenting approach produced exactly that: nasty, spoilt, entitled brats used to always getting their way.

Haven’t read the book so can’t comment on that.

however, as my kids are getting older, I’d say that I’d be inclined to agree. I wish I’d been less stuck on pointless rules.

my kids are -on the whole- kind, respectful people who are liked by peers and adults. I also think they were both born with their own distinct personalities which haven’t fundamentally changed since babyhood. Im not sure I’ve had much input into the young adults they are becoming!

I’d also say that the examples she gives ( eating sweets or sleeping in your bed) aren’t the actions of a selfish person. you may have views about it being ill disciplined or lazy. But does it make you a bad person?

I think we do sweat over this stuff as parents far too much. My DC haven’t turned to drugs because I let them drink fruit shoots as toddlers.

on the other hand, I think we can do a lot in teaching our DC how to be good citizens- common courtesy, empathy and not behaving selfishly. So I’m all for stopping a kid eating sweets that should be shared with others.

I think parents that don’t set strong boundaries about sharing and treating others with respect are the ones that end up with kids who become selfish adults.

the entitled kids you know haven’t been taught that other people have to be considered and you don’t always get your own way. I think that you can teach that in positive ways.

on the lack of scientific evidence- it’s always going to be difficult. But I’ve given up on parenting books as the advice keeps changing!

But perhaps your instilling rules was a component of them being the good human beings they are today.

Possibly. But I think it’s more about teaching them to do ‘the right thing’ as and when something happens. My kids have been rude or behaved selfishly at times and I’ve come down hard on that behaviour and they know I won’t tolerate it.

but I don’t think letting them stay up late, or eat sweets on a school night occasionally, causes too much harm.

I think that I was clueless about parenting when my first was born, so maybe overdid it with the rules! It’s so hard to tell though!

@Verydemure I agree that some parents end up obsessed on silly rules and on points which are not important. But my main objections remain.

What if things don't sort out by themselves?

What if your child coming to sleep in your bed means you are a sleep-deprived zombie in the morning?
What if you or your partner have an early shift and you just cannot accommodate this?

More generally, and this is a problem with so-called gentle parenting in general, what do you do when the child just doesn't get it and won't comply?

You have explained everything in a calm voice.
You have acknowledged their feelings.
You have proposed alternatives where feasible.
But what if none of this works?

I am not convinced that the author's approach of "don't worry, everything will magically sort itself out" is a very effective one

What if your child refuses to go to school and makes you late for work?
What if your child refuses to put on their shoes?
What if your child refuses to eat?
Etc etc etc

My parents would have beaten the holy c* out of me. Crude, excessive, wrong, call it what you will, but it ensured compliance, and I didn't turn out a violent thug just because I got an occasional smacking when I deserved it and when no other method worked. We can no longer do that now.
So what do we do? That's not clear to me.

Thanks for sharing. I agree, I suppose that all parenting advice has its market, the dominant advice seems to generally be what's attractive to those who were on the receiving end of the dominant advice a generation ago!

I would say that for parents with an authoritarian streak this might be a good book for them based on your summary, but for those with neurodivergent children it would be totally useless. Although I do sometimes wonder where the two collide. Hence my interest in your post, as it does come up at home here.

A lot of books feel more like fixes for specific issues, which can feel alienating, rather than an inclusive guide to generating a great family culture.

I think a good book would help you to think about your values, boundaries, capacity, and aspirations, and take you through the process of discussing and refining them with your family's input and then implementing and re-evaluating them over time.

However I think that's probably a bit much for a book as it would not really be accessible for the majority of people.

Most of the reviews are really good, so maybe it’s just not for you OP. The fact you mention your own experience of being beaten as a child as if it wasn’t that bad really as you turned out OK in the end suggests you have some deeply repressed issues.

No, it does not. I was not "beaten as a child", I received the occasional smacking in only the most extreme of circumstances. By that I mean something like no more than 4 or 5 times throughout the entire childhood. By that I mean that most misbehaviour would be punished with things like no TV time or no dessert, and only the most egregious tantrums would be punished with the occasional smacking.

@missrabbit1990 @johnd2 I agree with many of the things she says. But my main question remains: her main assumption seems to be that gentle parenting always works, and that everything will sort itself out in the end. But what if it doesn't? What if the child sees this as the parent caving, and feels entitled to demand more and more? What if you cannot give in not because you are needlessly authoritarian, but because there is an objective obstacle?
The author mentions the child sleeping with her. But what if this means you don't get any sleep?

On all these points, the author is silent.

These seem perfectly valid points. Dismissing them with "well, the book may just not be for you" is a bit rich. It's like implicitly admitting that these methods only work with some children. Which may well be the case.
My gripe with all these books and their followers, though, is that the advice seems to always be framed as some variation of "it worked for me, so if it doesn't work for you it's your fault". This is most unhelpful, because the last thing parents struggling with misbehaviour and tantrums need is to feel guilty as if it were all their fault.

You literally said your parents would have beaten the holy crap out of you… but ok.

@missrabbit1990 "Would have". Hypothetical.

Again: most misbehaviour would have been punished with things like no TV time, no desserts, etc. I think that once they didn't send me to a friend's birthday party ( I forget what I had done).

Again, only in the most extreme cases would I get an occasional smacking.

Maybe it's a coincidence, but this meant that I knew what the rules were, and I knew what the consequences for breaking them were.

You seem to have confused "I was smacked 4-5 times throughout my entire childhood" with "I was regularly beaten so I must have deep unresolved psychological issues".

No desserts, no birthday party, no tv time, most of that sounds really excessive. Were you a terribly behaved child? Most things can really be dealt with with a firm talking to tbh, maybe some extra chores. Your parents sound very harsh and authoritarian and therefore no wonder you struggle to understand more gentle parenting. I also knew what the rules were as a kid and was well behaved but being told off and sent to my room for 10 mins was all it took, no need for punishments beyond that.

OMG, you continue to grossly misunderstand everything!!!
None of that happened regularly!

Regardless, think of me and of my childhood what you will, but my questions remain: the underlying assumptions of the book are that gentle parenting always works. What if it doesn't? What when waiting for everything to magically sort itself out isn't an option?

These are relevant questions, on which the author is silent. You cannot dismiss them simply by saying that my upbringing was too strict so of course I struggle to understand gentle parenting.

These questions remain valid regardless of my upbringing.

Note that I am not saying I approve of being needlessly draconian. Read my post about Mossbourne academy (link at the top) if you are curious about that.

When you say that being told off was sufficient for you, you are behaving similarly to the author: your approach seems to be that what worked for you should work for everyone, and you seem unable to conceive the possibility that maybe what works for you might not work for everyone. Am I wrong?

Honestly I think you've got the nail on the head, yes for some families it works well for them to drop a lot of expectations and only have to give their child a look and they instantly snap into line. And many families it doesn't really matter what they do their child will turn out fine.
But for other families especially where there's special needs or other difficulties in the mix, there's a lot of deviation needed from the parent you wanted to be.
It's no coincidence that parenting courses are full of parents of special needs families, not to mention that prisons are full of ADHD adults.
So clearly there's more going on than follow the formula.

@johnd2 But these approaches are extremely damaging because the unspoken implication seems to be that these methods always work, so if they don't work for you it must be your fault.

It would be much more intellectually honest to be upfront and to admit that these methods don't always work with everyone.

Instead this approach risks making parents feel guilty and think it's their fault, at a time when they are most stressed and vulnerable. That's my main gripe.

Yeah indeed spent a few years thinking I was doing things wrong, mainly regarding sleep! Maybe there could be a government health warning on any parenting book!

What nonsense!

Taking away an expected treat like a dessert or TV time or going to a birthday party (or throwing one) is "excessive"?

I know a kid who never experienced any consequences for egregiously bad behaviour - physically assaulting younger siblings, cruel taunting of younger siblings, running around naked and deliberately marking furniture with bare bum, going on a tear with a permanent marker and defacing walls, flooring, and kitchen cabinets, and the like. I fully expect to hear this child turned out to be a model citizen, great spouse and parent. (Sarcasm).

@ParentOfOne i think we probably have to take all parenting guides with a pinch of salt. Anyone can write any old shit and sell it as advice.

i remember watching ‘Supernanny’ pre- kids and thinking that kids behaved badly because of poor parenting. It might work for some kids, but there’s NO WAY she achieved these results with ND kids.

i had a friend who says she can make kids eat anything within a week and there’s no such thing as a genuinely fussy eater…but her sample was… her only child! Now, I’m sure she would’ve have got many NT kids eating everything, but she wouldn’t have lasted a day with my ND son.

I agree that she’s a fool if she thinks her ideas will work with every child. But I don’t think there’s such a thing as a parenting expert. There are so many variables that you’d have to raise at least 1,000 kids to have any perspective on what works and what doesn’t