Consequences for a 4yo

[Icanttakethisanymore]

Hello everyone, I’m hoping you can give me your input on this. Our eldest DS (we have one younger who is 20mo) turned 4 in June. He’s generally pretty ‘normal’ in terms of his behaviour; occasional tantrums, worsened if he’s tired but generally pretty amiable. No physical or neurological concerns.

Hes starting to be a bit defiant and I’m unsure how to deal with it as he gets older and our expectations of him change. We were at my PILs house recently and he threw an object on the floor. My FIL said something like “hey hey, that was my grandfather’s, please don’t throw it on the floor.”

I reiterated that he should be throwing things and asked him to pick it up. He said “No”. So I picked him up, along with the object and took him into the room next door. I said we needed to put the object somewhere safe for FIL so it didn’t get damaged. I asked him to put it on the table so it would be safe. He said no. So I sat there with him in silence and periodically repeated my request, he got a little upset and frustrated but I kept calming repeating my request and ultimately he did it and we had a cuddle and he was fine. I felt like I was potentially escalating and not de-escalating but equally I didn’t quite now how to handle him refusing to pick the item up. What would you have done / what could I have done differently? Although it didn’t end in much of a stand off I know it could have, which isn’t ideal. I’m struggling as he gets older to know how much to ‘put’ on him in terms of expectation and consequences.

I’d have done what you did but without the little cuddle once he’d done it. He’d been disrespectful in someone else’s house, embarrassed you and repeatedly said no. Yet you rewarded him with a little cuddle when he finally gave in. Gentle parenting doesn’t help kids in the long run. I wouldn’t have further punished him and would have drawn a line under it, but being rude and disrespectful to someone else in their own house doesn’t earn you cuddles.

After he refused to put it down the first time I would have got down the his level looked him firnly in the eye and said "this is your warning, put that down nicely now or you are out of the room!" If he refused I would remove the item and give it to Grandpa then take child out for some stern words.

It's a tricky one. I try not to 'make' my 4yo do anything like an apology or an act like the one you describe unless I KNOW she's going to do it and it's not going to be me persuading and cajoling her to do it. Otherwise all it is teaching them is that if they do what you ask, you'll drop it. They're not actually feeling real remorse or a want to apologise. They're just doing it because you're making them. That's not emotional development.
When he picked up the object, did you know he would he was going to throw it? Did he throw it out of defiance or did he throw it because it looked like a ball for example?
If he picked it up, you said put that down, then he threw it, I would given out an immediate consequence for example, taken away a toy. 'I asked you put it down and you threw it, which could have broken it. I am taking away your tractor (this doesn't need to be a massive thing and don't try to proportion it to the crime, and not anything that's too far away to understand like you can't have ice-cream next weekend). It just needs to be simple, bad behaviour = consequence. If he tantrums then just let that run it's course. Then model apologising to grandad. When calmer, talk about what happened how it made him feel, explain that in these situations apologising makes the other person feel better and shows we are sorry, then support them in saying sorry to grandad when they are 'onboard'.
Basically in that moment straight after, their emotions are going to be through the roof which isn't the best time to teach something or to have a battle of wills.

I'm fairly similar - you dont want to get in a habit of standoffs. I would probably a 1, 2.... 3 and then on three I'm picking it up and removing them from the situation for a chat about behaviour.

I would probably be similar to this. DD (currently 3.5) responds well to a backwards countdown from 5.

I try not to 'make' my 4yo do anything like an apology or an act like the one you describe unless I KNOW she's going to do it and it's not going to be me persuading and cajoling her to do it

Yeah - this is why I felt it potentially wasn't a good strategy but the words came out of my mouth before I thought it through. He does normally do things if I ask if I stop him playing / remove him from the situation and refuse to engage with him until he does but I agree creating a standoff could backfire and as he gets older he might be more inclined to sit it out and I don't want to get into that.

When he picked up the object, did you know he would he was going to throw it? Did he throw it out of defiance or did he throw it because it looked like a ball for example?

It was a bell which he is allowed to play with and it's not particularly fragile but obviously he shouldn't be throwing it around. I am not sure why he threw it but I think it's because we'd been inside too long (it had been raining) and he was a bit bored and a bit annoyed because his little brother may have been getting more attention at the time. It was slightly stroppy acting out behaviour.

Taking a toy away from him at that moment would have been difficult (he was surrounded by them and his brother was playing with them as well) but perhaps skipping the asking him to pick it up and just taking him into the the other room for a while (which would have been a punishment) would have been less escalatory.

Basically in that moment straight after, their emotions are going to be through the roof which isn't the best time to teach something or to have a battle of wills.

Yeah - I think I definitely created an unnecessary situation.

Thanks for your advice.

Thank you. I don't really know what gentle parenting is but I cuddled him because he had been upset but he had calmed down and done what I asked so I felt that should be acknowledged. I am not saying I'm right BTW - very much here to listen to other peoples views.

He is allowed to play with it but he threw it on the floor, which he shouldn't have done. So I could have just told him not to do it again and picked it up myself but I asked him to do it (and he refused) when then created a bit situation.

Ok thank you, so what I did but skip the bit about forcing him to 'put it somewhere safe' which I agree was a bit pointless. Probably just removing him and talking to him about his behaviour would have been better.

I don't do this at all with ours so perhaps a countdown to make him understand it's 'serious' and he needs to do it otherwise there will be consequences would work well for him.

Natural consequences work here - "pick the bell up, or you won't be able to play with it again" is fine. If he refuses, just follow through and put it out of his reach.

Thank you. I think I felt at the time that wasn't a particular punishment given he is not specifically keen on the bell and was surrounded by other toys. In that situation would you still think just taking it away was sufficient? Maybe I made too big a deal of it.

We had an awful time last summer with my just turned 4 yo. Defiant and bloody awkward, it settled once she started school. I think there was just a lot of change going on and it took time for her to process it.

In those circumstances we remove her or the object until she's settled. We will usually sit her to one side away from the super engaging toys and give her space. It usually only takes a minute or two to break the cyclic knot she's got herself into and then we can talk about what is and isn't appropriate behaviour and we get on with the day.

I go with the "don't poke the bear" approach if a person has gotten themselves all wound up it's best to give them a few minutes to decompress before having a conversation so you are having the talk with a semi rational human rather than an irate bear!

Given your update on the context I think the natural consequence is fine - 'I'm taking the bell away now because you threw it. We don't throw toys inside, we can only throw (balls, beanbags) outside'.
You sound like a lovely mum and we've all been in a situation where something has left our mouth then we have to follow through - you did the best the situation you found yourself in!
Big little feelings online/on insta have loads of advice for situations like this for children up to 6. I really like how they explain things and relate it to the developmental age of the child.

I think that would have been fine, he did a minor thing if he’s allowed to play with it anyway, so a minor natural consequence is fine. If he then threw the next toy he got his hands on then you may need to step in and do more

I would have done similar to you OP. I used to time out my kids. Very calmly and they would always be given two warnings beforehand unless it was serious. I was obsessed with being extremely consistent. I never gave in to my kids because it was the easy option for me as I felt I’d get the benefit of being consistent. This worked really well for my kids and me.
I never shouted at them unless it was an immediate danger type of situation and they were generally very well behaved and happy kids. I liked to ask them how they could handle situations in future. Which sounds more yummy mummy that it was in practice. I also made sure I took time to discuss appropriate behaviour before we got into challenging situations. For example if I knew they were going to be hanging out with annoying friends I’d ask them about what type of things could they do if friend A begins to get bossy ( or whatever)
I made punishments short and clear and I tried to include positive actions such as an apology.

I didn’t do guilt tripping. I can’t stand that type of thing.

It really depends on the kids though. What worked for me and my kids won’t work for others. Some of its luck. I am naturally calm and laid back and so are my kids. They are adults now and all four of them are very chilled.

Yeah we go with this related consequences approach with our four year old.

We operate a three strikes rule. If he gets to three and is still misbehaving with a toy, the toy is taken away.

If he’s misbehaving in general (deliberately shouting in the bedroom when his baby sister is trying to sleep for example) then when we get to three screen time for the following day is lost.

Thank you. I’m just conscious as he gets older and changes that I need to adjust my expectations but equally I don’t want to get ahead of us and expect too much. He’s pushing boundaries a lot at the moment; I don’t want to be telling him off all the time but equally I don’t want to create issues down the line because I’ve let too many things slide.

Another tip that has served me really well - late 3/4 was when I started to introduce 'family rules'. So when having the chat afterwards, the rule here would be " in our family we look after other people's things". It's a lot more of a neutral way of enforcing boundaries, and something they can then use to show you they are doing something positive. E.g. next time he can show you how nicely he looks after grandad's things.

I started this after reading it in a parenting book - but it's become so handy now she's in school and the kids talk to each other about how they are parented. So she knows that all families have their own rules, and that friends who do things differently are doing things their family's way rather than wrongly (kids love to tell each other that they are doing things wrong!) But that she still needs to follow our family rules.

I have a child who fundamentally wants to do good with a few defiant moments - so we don't ever need to have more than natural consequences for the rules, I've never done a deliberate punishment such as taking a toy unrelated to the incident away. But as pp has said, I think the strictness needed can depend on the child sometimes.

My children are between 17 and 23. I have NEVER got to 3. I once asked them what they thought would have happened and they all looked at each other in horror. Then general view was that it would be the beginning of the apocalypse 🤣

I once managed to stop them fighting by saying “do NOT make me get up”.

They’re all boys with adhd and asd. We do actually have a good relationship but I was very clear in my expectations and what the consequences for poor behaviour would be. We were a no smacking, no time out household.

My boys had “behavioural issues” due to adhd and asd. 4 might be a bit young for this (depending on the maturity of the child) but I would outline my expectations (particularly for days out etc) and I would also say what the “reward” would be when they would be met (ice cream?). I would also let them know what would happen if they weren’t met (we’d go home). It generally worked, particularly as I followed through on the going home when it was necessary.

So we’re going to see Grandad, remember, theres no throwing inside …. It might have been that Grandads house is bloody boring and he was defiant (strong word for a 4 year old) as a way to get attention and liven things up a bit.

I completely get how frustrating that is, and it must be exhausting at times! At that age, consequences work best when they're immediate, calm and predictable. Something simple like, “If you choose not to pick the toys up, they’ll go away for the rest of the day,” and then calmly following through can be really effective over time. The key is staying consistent (even when it feels like it’s not working yet!).

If and when, he does follow an instruction, it's always good practice to really go overboard with really specific praise, and hopefully that will help to reinforce the learning, and mean he is more likely to do it again next time.

You’re definitely not alone in this, lots of parents I work with as a children's mental health practitioner are in the same boat. Good luck though!