Struggling with 3.5yo - reward chart?

[Disintegration1985]

Sorry if this is a bit long and rambly, I’m just trying to explain my thinking fully!

DD is 3.5 and I’m struggling with her behaviour at the moment - mostly with her just flat out refusing to follow instructions or complete tasks that are non-negotiable - things like getting in the car, getting dressed, brushing her teeth etc.

Usually we do natural consequences - e.g. if she throws a toy it gets taken away for the rest of the day. However, in these circumstances I just can’t figure out how that would work.

For example, yesterday when I picked her up from nursery, she climbed into the car (she usually gets into her car seat herself) then said ‘I don’t want to get in my seat’ and refused to budge.

I couldn’t pick her up and put her in the seat myself (for various reasons - her size, lack of room in the back of the car, another car parked tightly next to us etc.), and I couldn’t follow through on a natural consequence (which I guess would be that we can’t go anywhere) because it was 5.30, tipping it down with rain and we needed to get home.

After endless back and forth and me threatening punishments (not having her favourite music on for the drive home, no tablet when we got home etc.), I eventually ended up getting cross and shouting, which made her cry - although she did then get in the seat.

But it’s like this pretty much every day. I’ll give her an instruction (‘it’s time to get dressed/brush your teeth/get in the car’), she will flat out refuse, I end up raising my voice and then she cries. Every day just feels like a battle, every interaction feels like it ends in conflict and I just feel like crap all the time.

But I’m just not sure how to tackle this, for several reasons.

1. I’m not sure how a natural consequence would work. I can’t say ‘OK well if you don’t get dressed you can’t go to nursery’ because I’ve got to go to work. It could if we were going somewhere fun of course.
2. The attitude when she’s resisting. She’s not angry, or upset, or frustrated when she’s refusing. In fact, she’s very cool and calm about it - for some reason this really presses my buttons!
3. Even punishment doesn’t work. She just says ‘OK’ and continues to not cooperate. I told her the other day she’d have to go to bed early if she couldn’t behave and she literally picked up her doll and took herself upstairs to get her pyjamas on! (I do follow through on these, but it still doesn’t make her do the thing that I need her to do)

I’ve thought about a reward chart, just to try and get us out of this negative cycle and try and focus on something positive. Perhaps with a more meaningful ‘prize’ like me playing with her, or an extra bedtime story etc. so she understands that less time arguing and messing around = more time to spend doing something nice.

But I’m not sure how that would work - ‘follow instructions’ sounds like a very vague target for her, but if I list every instruction she refuses, it’d be a long list and probably quite overwhelming!

The natural consequence for not getting in her car seat when you ask her is that you don't take her out next time because you can't trust her to listen to you and it's not safe to be standing in a car park/near a road when she's not listening.

3 year olds are the absolute worst. I am having all the same problems and I'm afraid I have no answers (apart from the one above) only solidarity.

I spend a lot of time snapping and shouting unfortunately!

Solidarity OP, we are having the same issues over here with 3 year old DD. “I don’t want to!” and pointless defiance over basic things like shoes and brushing teeth. I know it’s normal and she wants control etc etc but knowing that doesn’t get me out the door on time 😂 we are having success with a pom pom jar, she wasn’t arsed about stickers. When she fills up the jar she can choose a treat. We don’t ever take out pom poms she’s earned, she just doesn’t get one that day if she’s not “switched her listening ears on”…so the more faulty the listening ears are the longer it takes to fill. touch wood it seems to be working 90% of the time!

Posted too soon! We call it the listening jar so if she’s not listening to an instruction or refusing to do something we will say something like “what a shame, looks like there’s no listening pom pom today so it’s going to take even longer to get treat”, if it carries on we say “I’m going to count to 3 and if your listening ears aren’t on by 3 no pom pom today” and usually it works.

I was you at the start of the beginning of this year. Every little thing was a battle and it was so draining, like you say not everything can have a natural consequence that a 3 year old would give a flying fuck about e.g. if you dont get in the car we won't go to xyz but actually we need to because it's pre school, or the supermarket or whatever...

I listened to Good Inside by Dr Becky Kennedy which really helped me. It sounds cheesy but now I always try and prioritise connecting with her before I ask her to do something, like making her laugh or letting her do my hair. Often I have to ramp up the whole 'making it fun' like 'I bet you can't put your pyjamas on before I put mine on'. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and those times I end up having to physically help her do the thing e.g. 'OK you obviously need help getting into your car seat' so I just have to suck it up and crawl in with her to get her in 😂

I also do the listening ears thing 'oh dear you've not got your listening ears switched on, we won't be able to do <insert fun thing in the future> until they are working again' which sometimes works. I also go REALLY REALLY OTT with the praise when she's had a good listening day.

I do think that we are coming out the other side of it now she's about to turn 4 but 3 has definitely been a rough age!!

At 3.5 she should still be small enough that you can manhandle her into doing things like getting into her carseat. Obviously it's not ideal to be doing that on a regular basis but sometimes you need to use that physical authority at this stage. I'd say that the choice is you get in yourself like a big girl, or mummy puts you in which isn't going to be very nice or comfortable for either of us.

The natural consequence of not getting dressed is that she goes to nursery in her pyjamas.

The natural consequence of not putting shoes on is that you go out without shoes and get hot/cold/wet/sore feet.

Teeth brushing is more difficult because they natural consequence is both too far away and a health concern. For this I would go with nothing sweet/no treats because you can only eat sugary things if you're brushing your teeth well. Missing the odd tooth brushing session will be fine.

Car seat is very tricky because again you can't let the natural consequence (you'll be really hurt/killed if we have a car accident) happen.

From what you've said I wonder if what she's looking for is attention. It seems that when she digs her heels in like this that you cajole/negotiate/bribe/threaten and just generally give it loads of attention. I would try giving it absolutely nothing. With the car seat, for example, I'd try saying "ok, well we can't go anywhere until you're in your seat", then get in the front and look at your phone/a book/out the window and completely ignore her. Don't look at her or speak to her until she's in her seat. Once she's in her seat, give her loads of attention. Lots of nice chat, praise etc.

I would try this no attention system alongside natural consequences, for example if she refuses to get dressed just say "ok" and get on with what you're doing to get ready and then when it's time to leave the house do so with her in her PJ's (take clothes in a bag), don't mention it, don't threaten, don't bribe...just let nature takes it course i.e. she didn't get dressed so now she's going to nursery in PJ's. Let her experience the consequence rather than having you threaten the consequence endlessly. Make sure that actually getting dressed earns her some attention i.e. let's go upstairs and get dressed together/let's see who can get dressed quickest/will you help me choose what I'm going to wear/shall I help you get dressed/can you get dressed in less than five minutes etc.

Alongside this I would do a chart showing each of the things that she needs to do each morning/evening so she has a visual reference list. I'd try giving her a bit of responsibility for doing what she needs to do.

Been through this, same age with DD, solidarity OP!

For option 1 - the natural consequence is that you get her dressed yourself (kicking, screaming, pinned down if necessary)

Same for doing tasks, you have to be prepared to get up, take her by the hand and do the thing with her.

We also tried a reward chart but it didn't work well because if e.g. she made a huge fuss of brushing teeth, said no, screamed, faffed around, cried, but still did it in the end she would still expect the star and then get upset if we said no.

What we have found is working is a Star jar (search on Amazon, you can get flat magnetic ones for the fridge).

We started randomly giving her a star after un- prompted good behaviour. E.g. 'wow DD you got your coat on straight away this morning, that was really helpful go and put a star in your jar'

She then gets a plastic tat magazine from the corner shop when her jar is full

We had to be quite heavy handed at the start, rewarding for every tiny thing! But eventually the good started to outweigh the unfavourable. Not to say she's perfect now, she's still an explosive 4 year old but she'll usually do what she's asked either after we ask once or before we count to three.

Good luck, it's tough

I don’t do reward charts or jars because I don’t believe in rewarding my child for things they should just be doing. We frame things as working as a team and that we help each other. You help me, I help you. He is also far too strong at 3 and a half to be manhandling into doing anything, that’s not an option. We reason in simple terms with him.

You don’t want to brush your teeth? Mummy and daddy do brush our teeth so we will continue to have biscuits and you will not. We can’t eat biscuits and not brush our teeth. Only once did he try this out and the next time he asked for a biscuit he didn’t get one. He has never refused teeth brushing again.

Doesn’t want to sit in his car seat? If you want to go to your favourite places I have to make sure you’re safe. This is my seatbelt, you have yours. You sit in it or we don’t go to x y or z place.

Most importantly think it helps to get in with a fun atmosphere first. I can’t do all singing all dancing like a children’s entertainer to make everything fun for him. I can’t be bothered with that. But I do do things like letting him come in the front seat and switch the radio on himself before he gets strapped in the back, and ask him what songs or audiobook he’d like to listen to while we drive. Get in with that fun stuff first before making the demand. With teeth brushing, instead of “brush your teeth”, I’ll say “ooh I already know which bedtime story I feel like reading tonight. Let’s go brush our teeth and then we can pick out some books!” That sort of thing.

Thanks for all the tips - and the solidarity! I don't want to clog up the thread with individual replies, but just to cover a couple of points...

Usually I do end up stepping in and doing things for her - getting her dressed, putting her in the car seat. However, I'd rather avoid it as then she does get riled up and has kicked/hit me on a couple of occasions and it's just generally hideous all round. I do also always follow through with consequences once I've threatened them, it's just doesn't seem to bother her sometimes - losing access to a toy upsets her, but she'd think it was hilarious going to nursery in her pjs!

I think the point about her wanting attention could be spot on though - it's always usually times when I'm preoccupied with needing to get somewhere (work, home, bed) and there's time pressure there. I will definitely try to be mindful of offering more connection first.

I like the idea of having a visual schedule/list of stuff she needs to do and the random giving of stars/pom poms. I don't want to instill the idea that she needs a reward for everything, but I just need to get out of this cycle of the constant nagging and telling off, I think a little boost like that might motivate her better.

Ah more solidarity from me too! I have a very similar DD and it can sometimes feel like the defiance is off the scale. I think we’ve tried everything this year from reward charts, jars, being firm, trying more ‘gentle’ approaches and it’s often felt like nothing was working or making a difference but she’s just turned 4 and I don’t want to speak too soon but we’ve noticed a real change over the past few weeks. Simple requests like ‘let’s brush our teeth’ are now mostly being responded to with ‘ok’ rather than ‘no I don’t want to!!’ And me then having to coax her into doing it. So I don’t have any real advice other than be consistent and hang on in there because I think (hope) we’re starting to see some changes where things are starting to ‘click’ for her now.

Choices, all.about choices at this age. Do you want put pjs on first or do teeth first? Do you want to put radio on first or get in seat first? Do you to put top on first or skirt? Its endless but gives them power and independence and that's the struggle. I would reward the good, ignore the bad. Well done for doing your teeth! (Ignore shes not in pjs!) Go overboard- wow your teeth will be so strong! Have a sticker etc. Incentive for everything then.
Well done for getting in car so quickly! We will be able to go to lots of places because ypu are quick at getting in car! Right into carseat first or do you want to choice a book/ radio on etc first?
Its exhausting but worth a try.

Surely part of the “natural consequence” is her seeing that her actions upset you. Over state how you feel when she doesn’t do what you want. Let her work out that if she does something that doesn’t please you, you will get upset.