4 year old - what is normal?

[Unicornskies]

I have a (just turned) 4 year old DD, who will be starting school in September.

I'm a bit worried about her as it seems like her tantrums and attitudes are getting worse rather than better. She has always been extremely sensitive to tiredness and has high sleep needs, so we know this is a huge trigger for meltdowns. We do early bedtimes and on some occasions she will even still nap (usually induced by a car journey). But recently it seems like she is always in a tired bad mood. She wakes up and whinges, comes home from nursery and whinges or has meltdowns. Has massively regressed with thumb-sucking recently - she's done it pretty much since birth but we were making loads of progress in stopping it over the last year, yet all of a sudden she's back to doing it more than she ever did before.

I also don't want to be THAT mum, but she's relatively intelligent and has learned all her letters/phonics a while ago and took an interest in learning to write her name, draw shapes etc. But now she seems to be developing an aversion to this, her writing progress seems to have gone backwards, she can barely even draw a circle or a stick man and just scribbles, but half the time it's an effort to even encourage her to do that because she just doesn't want to? She used to love doing this but sometimes she says she isn't good at it so she doesn't want to, and I don't know where she's got this from as we have certainly never said that. I don't force her but equally I'm worried that this will continue and worsen. Some of the stuff she's brought back from nursery lately are just faint scribbles whereas I've seen other kids draw something intelligible. I really don't have any expectations of her, but I'm just worried that anything she's learned is just being...unlearned. Even manners, she's always been brought up to say please and thank you yet lately she's just saying 'I want this' etc really rudely.

Everything just seems such a slog with her at the moment. When she's in a good mood it's lovely, she's chatty, clearly very perceptive and plays really well, she's great with her friends too. But those good moods are becoming very few and far between and generally she's just become unbearably whingy and unreasonable.

Does anyone have any advice?

Is she highly anxious about starting school? Both of mine were 5 starting (one with a September birthday and the other with a June birthday) and there was definitely an element of fear of the unknown.

She most probably is, although she hasn't specifically voiced this. I'm trying not to make a big deal out of it but at the same time there's so much transitional stuff going on at the moment eg her preschool are doing certain school readiness activities, there's settling in stuff at the new school happening and so on. I know it's probably unsettling for her but it's hard to know how much of this is a phase vs something to worry about. DH and I are generally finding things very hard at the moment and this is a man who genuinely has the patience of a saint. But she's really, really challenging right now 😔.

My DD has just turned 4 too and she has always been a quiet, relatively easy child and has developed an attitude and explosive tantrums too. I think it is partly age as I remember my niece being the same at 4 but also because they are tired and ready for a break from pre school and nursery. I find the summer term is always the hardest for my eldest.

Yup, 4 year old here is constantly whinging, crying and started being rude to us.

It's exhausting and our evenings especially can be pretty miserable!

I'm hoping it's a phase and we just need to continue being consistent with our discipline and trying not to lose our minds.

This is probably a me problem but I feel like I'm losing my patience a lot more and it's exacerbating things. I don't even feel like doing fun things with her any more because I know there will be a tantrum involved somewhere. I feel like I'm turning into the kind of shouty mum I never wanted to be, with constant threats about taking things away if she carries on crying etc etc.

The other day I really lost it in the car and screamed at her (because she had a tantrum that I turned one way instead of another) which I still feel so guilty about. I will always apologise to her and give her a cuddle and make amends but it's not good that this is happening in the first place.

DD is very similar to how you describe your child OP. And all of a sudden, shortly after turning 4 we started seeing all of the things you’ve described!

It’s definitely part of development, making sense of their growing independence towards school age. Understanding how they can influence and impact others behaviour and actions

It might be normal but it might be worth looking a bit deeper. Have you looked into PDA? I would suggest from what you've said that she may have neurodiverse traits, the thumb sucking could be stimming and ideally better to not discourage, if you need to discourage then try to deflect with something else if possible like a chew buddy. Even if she seems pro-social she may have a PDA profile, does she get attached to things or people? Have a look at PANDA website.

Look at demand...as some children reach this age they start to become more aware of social expectations and for some children this can be really anxiety inducing. The anxiety can be outwardly presented in obnoxious behaviour and meltdowns. Of course this might not be the issue but it sure was with my DC so that's why I'm sharing in case it helps, as having the understanding has been a game changer

https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is-pda/

I don't want to go down a PDA/nerurodiverse rabbit hole just yet although obviously I will look into it if things get worse. I don't know if the thumb sucking is a stimming thing as opposed to just comfort - she's pretty much done it since she was about a week old so could it be really be stimming if it's a habit that formed so early in life?

I think I may have inadvertently caused the avoidance of wanting to learn as when we first started phonics/writing etc I was perhaps I bit too OTT and it may have stressed her out. That's why I backed off for a while but as school starts soon I've been slowly trying to pick it up again but it's just not working.

DS4 has regressed to hotting and biting again this past week. They've been doing transition days in Reception and he's now got sports day tomorrow. Everything is a tantrum and his sleep is all over the place. They have so much going on in their little heads that they are still too little to verbalise. DS goes 5 days a week but I'm going to keep him with me one of the days next week and I might do the same the following week. I think it might be all too much for him at the moment.

Oh gosh firstly your job is not to stop her crying, actually it's a healthy way to express emotions. If she needs to cry give her the time she needs!
Also don't bother with phonics, there's no point adding stress to you both. Follow her interests don't try to dictate them at this age.
You're going to have to ride the wave a bit, yes something goes backwards and something else goes forwards, that's life with kids.
My philosophy with my probably ND and demand avoidant 5 year old is to give him the best possible chance of success at whatever he needs to do, but ultimately either it's up to him (eg eating a meal) or is not up to him and the last resort is I do it.
So you can leave the phonics sheets around and try to make them fun, but if the answer is no then do something that will build your relationship.
Also, something I realised is that if you consider ND in your own child you also have to consider it in yourself. Which can be painful and/or revealing.
Take care.

Yes I am totally with you on that one. When this started with my 4yo I became shouty and felt very disconnected with them, also didn't want to do anything fun because it always ended negatively.

But it got to a point where it was really affecting our relationship and I had to sit and have a word with myself. After some self reflection I realised that I can get overwhelmed easily and that my reaction was not proportionate to what is essentially normal 4yo behaviour. They need me to be the calm in the storm and so I try as hard as I can to take a breath and be calm and consistent. If crying/tantrum continues I just leave the room without saying a word and only go back in when it stops and then distract and divert attention to something else!

It's so so hard. I really do empathise.

I had one who was really reluctant to draw or even pick up a pencil or crayons at that age. Your time with then is so short that I would just concentrate on things she does enjoy at this age, she’ll be in formal education soon enough.

As for the grumpiness, is she getting enough sleep and does she have a vitamin and mineral supplement each day?

If you think that the meltdowns are getting to be a bit unusual for her age it might be worth doing the 48 month Social & Emotional Ages & Stages and seeing how she scores

I wouldn't worry about phonics at all. Our school asks that DC try to learn to read their name and have a go at writing it. But it doesn't matter if they can't manage either. A child that has picked up phonics before school and has an involved parent ready to support them with learning at home will likely wizz through their phonics in reception.

My 4YO will sometimes do intelligible drawings, other times it’s all scribbles. I think that’s relatively normal? He’ll also dip in and out of phonics/writing depending on his mood. Which is fine! Last thing you want to do with that age is push it and put them off. There’s lots of other activities to do to encourage fine motor skills like play doh or lego.

My 8YO still sucks her thumb to get to sleep. I’d rather she didn’t obviously but it’s a very, very hard habit to break. My niece was still sucking hers up until she got braces at 13!

Tantrums and attitude I actually found 4 was a huge improvement vs. 3 for mine but they’re all different. Biggest things are to make sure she’s sleeping, eating and drinking enough. Also, just a thought but maybe you’re given it all too much attention. I just tell mine ‘I don’t speak whinge’ and then ignore until they use a proper voice.

Sounds like mine, I was convinced she was ND, it started settling after 5.5yrs. Fairly sure it’s developmental, I knew quite a few parents dealing with suddenly extremely emotional 4yr olds.

Hi @Unicornskies

Sorry you’re having a difficult time.
My neighbour seems to be the same with her 4 yo. I don’t think you’re alone in this.

My two penneth worth of advice is forget about phonics but read and read and read stories to her!! Read in comfortable snuggly places. Read her favourite books to her again and again however boring for you! Do funny voices! Introduce new ones! Act them out if you’re reading in the day. Cuddle under the covers at night.

Play games with her where you’re on the floor clowning around. Do silly voices! Play shops and incorporate counting and asking for stuff politely! So different voices for her toys! ! If she strops - start to play a game with yourself and her teddy! Tea parties with teddies and dolls!

Play more and more especially if you get a smile out of her.

When you’re out - or you’ve told her you need a break to get something done, and she strops - just say when she talks nicely or asks nicely as soon as you’ve finished - you’ll play again. Be calm and firm. Reward good behaviour with time, turn calmly away from bad behaviour and distract.
If possible, arrange play dates at your house so she’s used to other kids. Heavily supervise them so you can help with sharing and taking turns.
Limit or no screens - certainly not as a reward. Maybe as downtime whilst you’re getting dressed in morning and whilst you’re cooking in evening.

Im a completely loan parent and have had some tricky times with my DD but she’s just graduated from a top Uni and am feeling v proud of her right now. I would say having fun and a good bond so they listen is everything.

Good luck @Unicornskies - it’s most likely just a phase - try not to worry xx

oh and also.. one other thing @Unicornskies … and I’m certainly not saying you do this, but I see it everywhere - put your phone away and don’t glance it when you’re with her.
Just leave it in your bag.
I’m sure lots of kids feel like they’re competing with the phone for their parents’ attention.

Agree - it seems to be everywhere.
mine was like this between 18 months and 2.5 yo - absolute crying breaking down nightmare!! Once she was really mobile and could walk everywhere and talk well and tell me what she wanted she improved again. I don’t think childhood is linear improvements it’s really 2 steps forward and 3 back all the time @User37482 😅

We are a year ahead of you and we had a really tough summer last year with my daughter before she started school.
She really struggled with preschool/nursery after July when all the term time kids finished for the summer. She became so moody and argumentative. We had allergy reactions as an added pressure, by mid August I was seriously regretting not deferring her school place as although I thought she was absolutely ready academically I questioned whether she was emotionally ready.

She could recognise her name but not spell it (long name though that most adults spell incorrectly!). She could recognise letters but has done no phonics practice. The first term was long - literally and emotionally, 2 or the 3 longest half terms of the year were the first too. She picked up phonics really quickly. It is obviously at times socially and emotionally that she's the youngest in the year and we have had to be proactive in ensuring that the school are meeting these needs too. She's reading at the same levels as the older kids in her year considering she's still younger than some were when they started reception it's not bad!

There are definitely times when she has needed to be a 4 year old (or younger) and not a 5 year. I remember one half term where the first day she just wanted to watch makaton nursery rhymes on you tube. I've tried to be mindful on school holiday days to give her time to be little and not always a "big" girl.

Hey, I'm just revisiting my own thread as I forgot about it and must have missed some replies.

Thanks so much for all your advice. As an update, DD has started school and settled in fairly well. A few tears the first day or so but nothing out of the ordinary and she always comes out happy. We are yet to have a parent's evening but we got the baseline assessment thing back which looked good and I'm astonished at how much she has learned in just a few weeks! I now realise I had nothing to worry about re learning and phonics etc. Even her drawing has suddenly improved dramatically.

However, the after school tantrums and tiredness are now off the scale and I'm wondering when I should start to worry and perhaps investigate further eg anaemia or another deficiency.

Of course I was expecting the tiredness and big emotions, but at the moment it's not unusual for her to come home, have a massive tantrum over something tiny and fall asleep before 5pm, I'd say this happens 1-2 times a week and she will either sleep right through till morning or wake at like 2am because she's hungry.

We've been trying to set a lovely routine after school - a snack, a bit of downtime (max 30 mins of tv) but mainly just play, drawing, puzzles etc before dinner at 5pm and then the usual bedtime routine. But at this rate I'm wondering whether to do dinner as soon as she gets home and then bed ASAP. The tantrums are also unbearable - she rarely has them in public but the other day she had such a bad one on the way home that it turned a 10 min walk into a 30 minute debacle, it was awful.

Anyone else I've spoken to doesn't seem to have this issue, yes their kids are tired but it doesn't seem to be anywhere near my DD's level. Would really appreciate any words of wisdom.

Hello @Unicornskies
great to hear she’s settled in well.
its still really early days so I wouldn’t panic! She sounds like she’s learning lots and concentrating.
is she eating her lunch? Does she have breakfast? She may be hangry!
She’s growing and learning and using so much energy. Do you pick her up from school with a snack? If not, I’d try that and then give her her dinner as soon as she gets in just for next month.
Then maybe just let her lie on the sofa and relax for a bit. It’s really early days in her school career and she will get used to it and will be easier - but hunger manifesting as being angry could be good to rule out! X

If you think it might be a deficiency, like anaemia, then I would take her to the GP. Ask them to not only check her for anaemia but also her ferritin levels as there is some research that low ferritin levels is linked in some way with ADHD type behaviour.

Dud you do the assessments tgat I linked to previously? It might be worth doing those before seeing your GP

The first half term we had crazy mood swings and tantrums after school. The second half term was a vast improvement

I think it was mostly cognitive fatigue whilst still having physical energy. At the time I was working 4 days a week and she was better on my day off when she went swimming after school. After half term my mum started picking her up one day a week and taking her to the park on the way home. I think having the opportunity to burn off some energy without having to use her brain helped to balance things out

I would drop any activities after school that require too much thinking like puzzles. Snacks to walk home with to give a bit of a boost in energy. Don't fret about tantrums on the walk home. Most parents have been there at least once just focus on getting home as quickly and as safely as possible.