Have I done all of this really wrong?

[NaranjaDreams]

We’ve got two little ones: a 3-year-old daughter and a 3-month-old son.
I’m self-employed, and my husband lost his job last autumn. His industry’s in decline, and although he’s trying (seasonal retail, deliveries, whatever he can find), stable work has been hard to come by. We’ve been in survival mode.

Our daughter was in nursery, but she’s never loved it. In November, her toilet training regressed badly — regular accidents, coming home in multiple dirty outfits, very angry. December was much better (probably because the class was quieter), but things got chaotic again in January. We decided to keep her home with DH to save money (£600/month) and reduce her stress. UC wouldn’t support childcare because DH doesn’t have fixed work.

But it’s been a tough year. She and DH clash a lot — she wants me for everything, from bedtime to snacks. She’s generally really good with me, but she ignores him or runs away, and it frustrates him. Toilet training has gone backwards again — I don’t remember the last time she pooed on the potty or toilet. It’s always in her pants, often stuck to her bum, and she fights any suggestion to sit on the toilet. I genuinely don’t know how to help her get past this.

We took her to a forest school trial a few months ago. For the first half we stayed close, but then the staff encouraged us to step back so she could explore. During that time, some older girls (maybe 13 or 14) apparently pushed her face into the dirt and made her eat mud. She didn’t cry or tell the adults, but later she kept asking DH why he didn’t help her. Since then, she’s been very defensive with other kids.

She’s become quite anxious and reactive — at soft play, she shouted at other kids to stop following her and even hit one. She sometimes hits me too. On buses or at group activities, she’ll ask if everyone else can leave. She does still make friends (usually clings to one), but won’t join in with a group like she used to. She gets upset if someone tries to join a game she’s already playing with another child.

We’re currently in Spain, trying to scope out a move we’d been planning for a while. But she’s woken most nights crying for her room, her friends, and home. She doesn’t understand this isn’t just a holiday. She’s awake for long stretches in the night begging to go back.

I feel totally lost.
Do we take her home and try a UK nursery again, with a structured routine and more support? We have finally secured a space at a highly recommended location, after a 2.5-year wait. However, they can only offer 2 or 3 days a week, and none of the available days are ideal. Do we stick it out here and hope she adapts, makes friends, and settles?
Have we completely misjudged things?

For what it’s worth — she’s been wonderful with her baby brother. She’s loving, gentle, and so helpful. She still gets lots of 1:1 time with me and DH. I do bedtime with just her every night, and she sometimes asks DH to bring baby in for stories.

But still — I feel like I’ve lost her, and I don’t know how to help her feel safe and confident again.

Any advice or recommendations would be really appreciated.

I think you're asking an awful lot of a child at an already difficult age - she's stopped going to nursery, had a new sibling, and now you're looking to move country. She's not got any control over these things so she's controlling the things she can which unfortunately is toileting and sleep.

I think she needs stability, routine and the opportunity to make friends at her pace. Its hard not to clash with them sometimes but your DH needs to work on this and make her feel secure if he's going to continue to be the primary caregiver. It sounds like a really tough situation all round.

I think it’s easy also to minimise the impact of the new baby - just because she’s great with him, it doesn’t mean she isn’t struggling with the huge transition to being a big sister. And it’s coming out in other ways (hitting you etc). These behaviours (minus toilet issues which I’m braced for!) sound exactly like what my son is doing and I’m 38 weeks currently. He’s often aggressive with me but outwardly positive about becoming a big brother. I’d stick with your plan and doing whatever feels best for the family long term and try not to panic too much about her behaviour, toilet etc, just be as understanding as possible that she’s having a hard time. Sounds like everyone is stressed and she’s the squeakiest wheel if you see what I mean, no quick fix, but doesn’t mean that it won’t improve with a bit of stability.

What kind of forest school was this?? An age range of 2-14?????
Did I read that right. Apparently a 13 year old pushed your toddler into the mud and held her face down? Did you report this?

My first thought was to stop trying to get her interacting with other children for now. Just let her be at home in a familiar place or out and about with one or both parents. Doing simple things, making time for lots of downtime too.

Your husband isn’t working, keep your dd at home. It’s all too much. Keep her at home and take her to the park and swimming and all that jazz. I emigrated when my dc were three and five and to be honest, it was seamless because they were secure. They were still each other and their parents. It was an English speaking country. This move does not sound great for your daughter.

I would keep her at home for as long as possible.

She and DH clash a lot

She’s 3. He needs to grow up and figure out how not to ‘clash’ with a 3 year old.

13/14 year olds pushed a 3 year olds face into the dirt?

Yes I cannot get past this, this is the most staggering thing I’ve ever read! Was this a typo?

Stick it out in Spain.

Tell your H to get his big boy pants on and learn to parent. He needs to get over himself.

Keep your child at home and save the money. It would be crazy to send her to any kind of expensive daily setting in your circumstances.

But your H absolutely needs to raise his game and stop feeling sorry for himself. He's the full time parenting parent now whether he wants that or not, and he needs to approach that role with the same seriousness and professionalism that he would bring to a paid job.

The incident at the forest school needs to be reported.

And why was she not supervised?!

it’s not normal at all for a kid that age to be anything other than caring towards a toddler.

Honestly I'd have called the police about the assault at the forest school. Was that in Spain or the UK?

Not a typo, sadly.

I still feel awful about it, honestly. It's the first proper certified forest school we've ever been to. Usually you drop off and leave once they turn 3, but as it was her first session, I was with her for the first half. For the second half, the staff asked us to step back and sit on some picnic benches around the side, and let her play. We were still available if she wanted to come over, and she could see us, but we were supposed to let her play and explore. She seemed happy, she went with a friend of hers so they were playing together.

The forest school is normally 1 - 5 but in school holidays, allow siblings to come. They've said this is standard practice in UK forest schools during school holidays. The older girls were siblings of a child there. I had no idea they were there until after the incident.

DD came back over with the bottom half of her face and her tongue covered in mud. She wasn't crying but she was quite angry. She told us that the older girls had pushed her down and tried to make her eat mud under one of the wooden slide structures. A member of staff came over and told us that they'd now "dealt with it", but that DD didn't shout out and had laughed when they asked if she was okay, so they thought she was alright. They said her friend was with her the whole time. They left her with me for five minutes and then asked if she wanted to join back in, which she did, so they went back to play. The older girls had been removed by then, but I stayed a lot closer. I have made a complaint; they are investigating.

DH has taken DD out this morning - initially she was very reluctant to go, but they are at the playground now. I will talk to him again about how he is with her. I do believe he's trying, but he easily falls back into how he was parented, which is ironic as he rarely sees his parents because they have no bond.

At the moment we're in Spain to scope out what neighbourhoods we'd like to live in. Initially the plan was to treat these few weeks like a holiday, and then go home until August/September, when we'd move over properly and she'd start nursery here. I'm now absolutely stuck on whether she stays with us - we do usually do lots of things, play groups, play villages, the park, swimming, gymnastics, admittedly not forest school since that incident... or whether we go home for longer and she goes back to nursery for some structure, or if just one of us goes home and the rest stay here? Or maybe we cancel the whole thing. She's a big outside girl, so I thought she'd thrive here.

(I have PTSD and right now, feel that I can't see the woods for the trees, so please be mindful if it feels like I'm jumbled.)

If the incident at the forest school was a few months ago and they 'still investigating' - then they're not investigating. It would have taken a couple of days max to investigate that.
Are they Ofsted registered? I'd report the incident to Ofsted.

I believe so! I'll look into that, thank you.

They responded to my initial complaint to say that they were sorry about what had happened but no harm had been done, and they were going to review their policies around sibling attendance.

I said I wasn't too happy with that as a reply; and they offered us a free session and said they'd investigate. Now I just seem to get emails saying the investigation is ongoing.

Does anyone have any other thoughts on preschool/no preschool?

I'm so lost. I want to give him what he needs.

Stick with your Spain plan.

Keep DC home with you for a while until they're feeling more settled and the neighbourhood feels more familiar.

Insist your H reads and digests some parenting books. Falling back on self indulgent impatience or knee-jerk reactions to behaviour of a young child isn't an option. Your child needs a predictable, kind, but firm parent, not whatever shouty, impatient, self indulgent nonsense he's currently dishing out. He needs to get up to speed and start behaving himself better. Your child will be far happier when he starts parenting well.

Look into nice preschool options about six months after you're settled in Spain.

It's not necessary to keep making excuses for bad behavior. From what OP described, it sounds like there's a pattern of justifying things—like the fact that she hits. Why is that being overlooked? Saying, "she has a lot going on, so give her some slack" isn't going to help in the long run.

OP, from your post, it feels like you're introducing a lot of new things—forest school, potty training, pulling her out of nursery—but not really following through with any of them. Consistency is key. If you're going to start potty training, commit to it and follow through until it's done. Focus on giving her the structure she needs.

Who is making excuses for the 3 year old? I just said he needs to learn to parent.

Can I ask why you are moving to Spain @NaranjaDreams ? You’d quite clearly had a lot going on, and you mention that you have PTSD, so I’m wondering what’s prompted the move. Can you run your business from there, will your DH be able find a job there, do you have family/ connections there? Are you actually able to work/ live there long-term following Brexit?

It strikes me that if your DH is struggling with being the SAHP in the familiar environs of the UK with toddler groups/ preschools etc, will it be even more difficult for him in Spain?

Another poster mentioned that you’ve been introducing a lot of new stuff, and your 3 year old seems to be struggling with that, so what impact will the move to a new country have on her?

The toilet issues sound like constipation. Take her to a GP.

The forest school sounds horrific. Report it to Ofstead. 3YOs usually benefit from a nice normal preschool where they mix with their peers though.

It sounds like she’s had a lot of change in the last year and very little consistency. Whatever you do next I would stick to it. What’s the deal with the Spain move?

Thanks for the new comments.

To answer some new questions… DD was potty trained at 2. She’s regressed but it’s not a “new” thing, really, and I was hoping she’d been trained far enough before DS that she wouldn’t regress, but she has.

Forest school is a once-a-week class here. We tried it as something new for her to do after she stopped going to nursery. She’s usually very active and happy and social, so she loves activities. She already does lots of things like swimming and gymnastics, but the choice is always hers - she chooses to pause or stop things she’s not interested in at the moment or she’s not concentrating in over a longer period, like football.

Spain - my business will function better there post Brexit. Essentially leaving the EU has made it much harder to run in the UK. With a bit of work, the business would likely be successful enough to employ DH in Spain, which is likely why he’s so keen; as well as him believing a second language is one of the best things we can give the kids. Our visa was approved on Friday. We don’t have family here, though, or very local friends.

In the long run, I think the school system and the second language would benefit DD, and she loves the outdoor environment. In the short term, I really cannot decide whether she actually needs us to go home and implement some more structure and stability, probably with a new preschool, and see how she does. We could reevaluate in six months without needing to reapply for the visa, or next year if we apply again. I’m not sure how to make that decision… I can’t see the woods for the trees.

We have our visas for Spain now, but realistically it’ll be six months or so until the admin processes are complete and we can properly rent somewhere, so we’d be in short term rentals until then - we’d try and stay in as few as possible but I suspect we would have to move around a bit. Then wed likely get a longer term rental. We’d apply for preschool for DD here, but she’d only be able to start if there’s a space somewhere, and we might not get much choice. She wouldn’t be able to start until September and they’re mostly full time, which will be a pretty big change for her. The two we’ve viewed so far are both 8:45 - 4:30, although one has said they’d allow just mornings as long as it was the same timings every day.

My Spanish is passable, DHs is slightly better. My industry conducts business in English, even here, so it won’t be a professional issue for a while; and we’d work on it, but it’d be isolating for DD until she’s picked up some phrases. That said, people keep telling me 3 is a great age to move and she’ll pick up the language fast.

On the flip side, we own our house in England. The old nursery is a short walk away, we live near a nice tourist town, she has close friends from her NCT group nearby. She has a routine and a lot of activities that she loves. It feels like a much smaller world and business is harder but we can get by fine, and her going to preschool again would give me more time to focus on it… so potentially that’s the more stable option for her.

I wouldn't worry about nursery for now, just let her be at home with your DH. Nursery isn't essential (my DD was 3 in 2020 so spent most of her 3rd year at home) and sounds like she needs some routine and her own home. Your DH definitely needs to work on his parenting. I had to re read your message to check I didn't miss read your DDs age - the way you talk about the relationship between DD and DH it sounds like she is a teenager! You can't 'clash' with a 3yo! A move to Spain will be easier if your DH is more confident in his parenting and can be the 'sturdy leader' / consistent parent your DD needs