Where has my sweet girl gone and what do we do?

[helpmeCalifornia]

I’m posting about 4 year old (5 in August) who we are having some real behaviour issues with lately and I feel so sad and wonder where my sweet girl has gone.

We’ve always leaned towards gentle parenting but still with clear boundaries, natural consequences (not saying we didn’t get it wrong at times too) and in the main she’s always been a confident, happy, loving little girl - yes strong willed and the odd toddler tantrum but never anything to worry about. Since 4 though it’s like things have got harder and harder.

She gets so angry all of a sudden. Usually when things stop going her way, we have to stop an activity she’s enjoying or increasingly when it’s time for baths/ hair washing (which she used to love). She gets really shouty, red in the face and starts hitting out - she will most of the time hit at air/ cushions etc or make it look like she’s about to hit us but not actually do it but increasingly she’s actually hitting or kicking.

She’s also just so demanding of our time and attention. Like I know that is standard for 4 but she has no ability to play independently, and it feels like however much we play with her it’s never enough. The second we have to stop whatever it is we’re doing she’ll go to ‘just one more, just this, just that’ and then if that doesn’t work it’s either anger/ hitting out or occasionally just sobbing and wailing about how nobody cares about her.

She’s bright - I know everyone thinks that about their children but she definitely is. There’s no issues at school her teachers report a complete angel who has lots of friends, follows the rules and is exceeding expectations. She’s happy at school and has always enjoyed going though she does seem exhausted afterwards which is fair enough as she’s one of the youngest in the year. I do wonder if there’s an element of ‘restraint collapse’ sometimes although tonight for example she was delightful on the walk home, helped me make dinner, played so nicely with me and her dad in the garden and it only kicked off when it was time to stop.

So on that note - after having the nice time playing tonight she was angling for just one more just one more game - she had warnings about after each person has had one more turn that’s it, with a reminder each time. But when it was time she got angry, started hitting out and then chased her dad as if to kick him. Then hit me on the arm really hard - enough to leave a mark.

I did really shout then - just ‘WE DONT HIT’ and her dad and I went inside mostly because I needed to calm down and I thought in the moment that that was the consequence moving away from her/ ignoring. She threw herself on the floor and there was a lot of loud pretend crying and wailing about how I don’t love her, nobody cares and ‘I’m scared out here’.

I calmly told her that I had moved away because she hit me, it hurt and that’s what happens when you hit people they don’t want to be near you. Probably the wrong thing but honestly I just don’t know what to do at the moment. All you ever see is ‘it’s ok to be angry it’s not ok to hit’ type scripts but they don’t seem to be working or sinking in.

When she came in we talked about it again but she just wanted to talk about how the ball had hit her during the game and nobody had said sorry (I’d stopped, checked she was ok and she’d laughed and wanted to keep playing) and then just wanted cuddles and was saying ‘do you forgive me’ but as soon as it was time for bedtime it was back to pushing her luck, refusing to go upstairs, ‘just let me do this’ and when none of that worked ‘I hate you I only love daddy’. Although small mercies no more hitting I guess.

There definitely needs to be firmer consequences I know - in the moment there didn’t seem to be an obvious one other than ignoring the tantrum and withdrawing for a bit, then following through on bedtime. We’ve never done time outs, naughty steps etc and I don’t really believe in them (and we haven’t needed them up to now!) but clearly what we’ve been doing isn’t really working so maybe I need to get over myself.

As I said she’s fine at school and also in any other setting than at home with me and her dad.

Because it might be relevant - try to keep screen time to weekends only - don’t set any particular limit at the weekend but it’s naturally limited by the fact we’re out and about and doing lots of other stuff. She eats a really healthy variety. Sleep has always been a challenge, not so much going to sleep but staying asleep she still wakes multiple times a night.

She’s clever, funny, so determined and resilient, absolutely full of creativity and fun and very loving. I just hate this behaviour currently and feel so worn down by it. It’s spoiling every nice time we have together, every outing etc however we’ll things start we always seem to end up with tantrums and her being angry/ aggressive.

I don’t even know what I’m asking! Just where have we gone wrong I guess and how can we make it better?

This reminded me a lot of an interview I listened to recently with a comedian. I can't remember the exact phrases they used but they realised that, I think, confidence and self worth weren't the same thing.
They didn't think they had issues as they could get on stage every evening and perform to crowds but then realised that actually that confidence to perform was in contrast to other behaviours and feelings and they went on to realised they had low self worth or what ever their second descriptive phrase was.

It sounds like her self worth is quite low and that she tries to counter this by doing more and better. It might be worth talking to the teachers about her feelings towards the "sunshine". It sounds like she is using it to set her herself high and at some point is going to be unattainable standards.

To be honest given this post I think your first post makes a lot of sense. She is trying to maintain the impossible and at some point the pressure cooker has to release

A bit harsh but probably fair yes!

I know there’s a lot of hand wringing and I don’t really know why, too much ‘parenting’ content consumed I guess and that horrible mum guilt that I’m getting it wrong. Awful childhood myself so I probably am prone to catastrophising and overthinking. Also just posting on a particularly bad day after a run of particularly bad days.

But yeah, she may well be picking up on those
vibes. I could do with being a lot calmer and a bit more no-nonsense.

I seem to have made ‘mum friends’ with people with the most angelic of children because I really don’t hear this stuff from them no! Toddler tantrums and sleep stuff when they’re younger yeah, but I got the sense that most kids were growing out of this stuff by now but I can see now that I was wrong, which is also reassuring.

My 4 year old is exactly like this. Delightful most of the time, very well behaved at school, crazily competitive and a horror when overtired - including lashing out physically.

I think this is completely normal. You’re not “getting it wrong” apart from expecting her to be perfectly behaved and unprepared for difficult phases caused by being a child. Completely agree with the poster above about catastrophising.

I also happen to think gentle parenting is all well and good for gentle children for whom it easily works. But it is not effective for many more fiery children and wanging on about big feelings and it being ok to be upset only encourages/sanctions unacceptable behaviour like hitting in my opinion. It’s fine to show upset as an adult and give a stern telling off for hitting/biting/otherwise injuring others. I also like to throw in a boring lecture about how we need to think about how other people feel as well.

Much of this could have been written about my year 1 daughter who just turned 6. Like yours she is tenacious, loving, enthusiastic, and incredibly explosive. I don't know if she is ND - it's entirely possible and I'm withholding judgement - but either way I think she finds school very draining and releases her safety valve at home. I also know that among her cohort she's far from the only child that does this (only today I was chatting to another mum about how her 6yo spent 20 minutes screaming on the floor for very obscure reasons this morning)...

I don't know. I don't think all 'masking' behaviour is necessarily due to neurodiversity. Many many children are on their best behaviour at school and let rip at home where it's safe to do so. Many many kids lash out and push all the emotional buttons. And 4-6 is such a huge transition age from toddlerhood to the complexities of being a kid among peers.

I'm mindful that girls are less likely to be diagnosed and that their symptoms are often overlooked until they hit a wall in adolescence; I also know that bright kids who are outwardly managing are unlikely to be referred for assessment in the first place. But I try to hold that knowledge lightly, if that makes sense? Just equip her with the tools for socialisation, don't make a big deal of it, but remain ready to advocate for her and her needs if it starts to become apparent that she is ND.

Do talk to her teacher. They'll probably be seeing the best of her (DD's sings her praises) but they may be able to give you a little more insight into how typical this kind of behaviour is. I personally found age 4 incredibly challenging - things have got better since then but year 1 having more formalised learning, expectation to go to assembly with the big kids etc, does step the expectation up. So the explosiveness doesn't really surprise me too much.

You sound like a good mum to a lovely girl. Keep on trucking.

She sounds overtired and like she's testing what the boundaries are to me. Reception can be exhausting for the youngest in the year.
I'd give serious consequences for hitting and kicking. Even at four she needs to learn to control her temper. That and lots of positive attention at other times, which it sounds like you're already doing.
Good luck - sounds like a difficult phase.

She sounds like a typical overtired 4 year old to me.
They get to the point where they can't stop and just lose all reason.
It will pass, these things do.
It sounds like you have already got some good ideas to try but don't over think it.

For us it has worked when we have all been stuck in the negatives and need to readjust the conversation and the interaction for the positives. It's been a visual way of saying let's stop and re-evaluate how we are communicating.
As soon as we start we find the communication improves and you are right it's that that makes the biggest difference and we find that we make doing more spontaneous praise as we go and are generally less prickly around one another. We use it as a bit of a support as we find our way back to a more natural and sustainable praise and life model. We've only brought them out 2 or 3 times and I think the longest has been the 4 weeks we did in the example I gave here, we probably could have stopped it after 2 weeks but it coincided with her wanting to practice her counting.

I'd say big emotions are definitely still normal for a while yet, especially outside of school. Different children (and adults) have different sensitivities, and you've outlined the kind of things your daughter gets upset about. You probably also know adults who (metaphorically) get upset at the thought of being moved off the sunshine board, but the difference is they're not expressing those emotions like your daughter does, because... she's four, and that's a different creature to an adult. So in a way, it's a gift (though not a fun one) that young kids can show us what their worries are, whereas an older child or adult might just suppress it. It's normal that she hasn't yet learnt to be breezy about the sunshine board, peer rivalry etc, but there's no reason to think she won't mature. I'm not saying leave her to her own devices, obviously it's good that you're observing her and wanting to support her, just without seeing her as a problem to be solved.

Maybe chatting to her teacher would be useful, get their perspective? They have seen it all!

Your thread reminded me of one someone made a little while ago, about her similarly-aged son... There was a lot of detail and speculation about what might be wrong with him, was he ND etc, and then she completely glossed over the fact that they'd recently emigrated to a new country with a different language, new school, and also he'd had a new sibling born, funnily enough coinciding with the period when he changed from perfect cherub to problem child. So, sorry if I was harsh, I think this thread brought back feelings of the other one!

I've used the puppy analogy often. We're training a Labrador at the moment. It's been challenging. She's just hit two years of age. Finally my sofa cushions, footwear, skirtings and rugs are safe. It's a rollercoaster with pups canine and human.

I mean what four year old should have to sit on the mat quietly for the last half hour of the school day without fidgeting. I'd come flying out of the building humming with pent up tension.

Thankfully we have a park near the school and a garden at home where they can let off steam.

My eldest DD is now 14, and was extremely similar to your DD at aged 4. Very good mostly at school, incredibly bright, really feisty, a proper character, who had a lot of tantrums.

I remember on one occasion after school literally feeling the worst mum ever, as she was rolling on the pavement outside the school, refused to do anything to get up or go home, and I had ti half carry/half drag her along bawling loudly. 😳😅 I'm certain other parents were walking past giving me the side eye! 😂

Now, my eldest is brilliant, extremely interesting, incredibly intelligent (Oxbridge material), and a really lovely young lady. I'm so proud of her and I think it's imperative to stop and remember "this too shall pass" when you're in the throes of it all!

My youngest daughter is exactly the same now, absolutely amazing but gives me deja vu watching her as she reminds me so much of my eldest. I know it is her strength of character, stoicism, and confidence that makes her so feisty, and I'm hoping she'll be like my eldest daughter, and all will be ok.

I think your daughter sounds like a lovely, happy, very similar child to my daughters, and she will be fine. You're doing brilliantly, keep going, it gets better 👏🏻 👍

Hi OP. I’m a research psychologist and have worked quite a bit on this topic. You say she demands your time and attention and it’s never enough.. I would explore attachment. Tonight for example (I am speculating, correct me if you think I’m wrong) it sounded like she wanted to find a way of spending longer in the game with you, like you say ‘angling for another turn’. She couldn’t accept the warnings and that the game was to come to an end, because that means time with mum and dad will come to an end. So she becomes frustrated and aggressive, because it’s unfair: aggression after all comes from a feeling of injustice. A child whose behavioural difficulties are around ’you don’t love me’ and ‘I’m scared’ is likely to have an attachment issue - these are tell tale signs.

The problem is that it’s a bit pointless to try to resolve it with strict consequences, naughty step, etc. Because while this might subdue her behaviour it won’t alleviate her sense of injustice or address the underlying issue. Could it be that tonight, it didn’t matter if ‘we don’t hit!’ or that she had to spend ten minutes in time out or whatever, because at the end of the day ‘mum and dad don’t want to spend time with me’? That will dominate her thoughts and behaviour much more than the fear of consequences.

Does that make sense?

Regardless of neurodivergence or not, you can cross that bridge later if you need to, addressing her fear of/ frustration with being away from you might make things easier. The solution to attachment issues is to give her as much of yourself as possible. Can you spend as long as she wants with her in your lap and talking about her day? it’s unrealistic to solve it anytime soon or overnight but I think your sweet girl will return eventually once she feels more secure about her relationship with you.

I found the same with my DD. It's a subtle distinction, attachment. I had become so fixated on how to parent and what good parents did in certain situations that I wasnt trusting my most basic instincts to just adapt myself to my daughter's needs...for hugs or sleep or reassurance or exercise.
It's not about showering them with attention or stimulation or telling them things all the time - it's looking after yourself as a parent too. You are the one doing the attaching too!!! You are a very important person and you shouldn't feel you are doing things all wrong or that gentle parenting is wrong.
I suppose I'm trying to say the obvious, relax and she will relax too.

I have a similar parenting ethos to you, gentle parenting which obviously includes boundaries.

my 4yo is behaving the same way. With the big feelings and the hitting. She’s at preschool at the moment and won’t be starting school until September so I can’t blame it on school, BUT we had a baby 4 months ago and it wasn’t an easy pregnancy, I had HG and had to go to hospital a few times, so things changed pretty quickly.

I have been really trying my best with her, I’ve been re reading (listening) to Philippa Perry’s the book you wish your parents had read, I’ve reread Sarah Ockwell Smiths how to be a calm parent and I’ve re read how to talk so little kids will listen

What I have realised is we can do all the right things as parents and they are still going to behave like this, we’re basically playing the long game with the regards to the behaviour improving

I think my biggest worry has been that she’s not happy, I feel immense guilt about the baby

For what it’s worth I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong, I think she’s just trying to tell you how she’s feeling and it’s coming out in the wrong ways I.e. hitting. I recently asked on one of Sarah Ockwell Smith’s question boxes about the hitting and she said that all behaviour was communication and to focus on why she was hitting; what is she struggling with? How is she feeling? What do they need from me to feel more regulated?

She has a video on YouTube about hitting and I found that reassuring

Honestly, you could be talking about my daughter in your post, even down to the screen time, I only allow a maximum of 30 minutes a day and sometimes she has none so it’s not that

I'd go with tired before neurodiverse.

But either way structure can help. Also 'count downs' so instead of, "OK time for bath then bed" you start with, "I can play with you for X amount of time" with "OK we have 5 mins left before your bath time".

Thanks @Dellspoem and @Nettleskeins - that’s really interesting about attachment.

I had a very traumatic start to life, was kind of adopted (within the family, it’s complicated) and experienced a lot of bereavement etc as a child. Plus addiction/ alcoholism and abusive behaviour. So I was interested in attachment theory etc when I learned about it all later, and when I eventually had therapy.

Thing is - I really thought we’d nailed that side of things! We did the coaleeping, baby wearing etc. I’ve changed my whole career to work from home only school hours so I’m always there for drop off and pick up, her dad is really present too, we’re so affectionate etc etc. She obviously needs a bit more/ different though so that’s a really helpful way of framing it and for me to look at.

I definitely get overwhelmed a lot, I’m actually seeing a lot of myself in her now I’ve posted!

One thing I'm definitely learning about my 4.5 yo is to try to live in her reality and not reality.
I know she hasn't been alone all day and that no one played with her. The reality is she was with children most of the day but there was a short period of the day where she was struggling to interact with children. Her reality is she was alone. We try to talk to her to help shift her reality closer to reality talking about things she would have done earlier in the day. Give her interactions with children on the walk home champion her needs with the school.

A lot of those things you listed are more building attachments from a young age and maybe you have missed needs are adjusting with age. Maybe it's worth sitting on your own shoulder for a day or so and see what she needs at the moment to support attachment in the tricky times of day. I think its often a good idea to periodically step back and determine whether what you are doing meets the needs of the child you have Infront of you rather than the child you had 6 months ago

Going back to your first post, I wonder if the time of year is having an impact? My daughter is quite sensitive to daylight and we have to limit time outside after about half 4 -5 o'clock as she stays in "daytime" mode and is much harder to engage with bedtime routines if we don't asto her it's not evening it's time to play.
Another thought I had from your first post is about being mindful about only starting games and activities that you have time to complete and it might be useful to set two timers at the start of the game. We will play for 45 minutes I'll set a 45 minutes timer and a 40 minute timer so you have that 5 minutes warning.

My children all went berserk if I set timers. Or if I gave warnings or countdowns
It's so much more straightforward...leave enough time for things, expect everything to take longer than the time you have, factor that in, keep instructions to first this then that. Don't endlessly explain things.

I once experienced a two hour tantrum from my daughter aged four which started in a National Trust tearoom. She wanted a slice of chocolate gateau with cream piping and I bought her the healthier option of beetroot and chocolate tealoaf (don't ask)
I stuck to my guns. The entire outing with other relatives was ruined. I gained nothing except my own sense of being "right". I should have just made a game out of buying the gateau and sharing it four ways.

I had made the mistake of asking her what she would like and then taking the choice from her. I shouldn't have asked her to choose if I wasn't going to abide by her choice.

Such a beautiful post!

She just sounds like a normal 4yo with a Type A personality.

There does need to be consequences for rudeness or bad behaviour.

It's not unusual at all for a child to struggle with emotional regulation at this age though, and being a competitive perfectionist is just what some people are like and not necessarily a bad thing. She might well always be a little highly strung but probably also a high achiever.

My DD is exactly the same as this. We had a very chilled Easter holiday and she seemed a different kid by the end of it. By the end of the first week back she was absolutely beside herself on the Friday night - shouting, crying, you name it. I do think she gets tired from school, and that bit around restraint collapse is true, and try to support her with plenty of chill out time and cuddle time as that seems to regulate her. Equally, I am firm that shouting / being mean or violent is unacceptable, and that her constantly whinging at me about how hard she has it is falling on deaf ears! I’ve done a fair amount of the “what am I doing wrong” thinking too OP, you’re not alone! Speaking to other reception mums has helped a lot, they all seem to be going through it at various points.