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Please tell me the behaviour gets better

16 replies

namechangedcuzashamed · 29/01/2025 10:49

I'm struggling with my 4yo DD's behaviour. She seems to have had a personality shift since starting school in September and I'm constantly worrying I'm not doing the right things in terms of boundaries etc. DH thinks it's fine, she's only 4, it's just a phase. I'm also embarrassed (I know this shouldn't be the main focus, but it's true) when she acts up in public and I don't know how others are getting their kids to just behave!

Positive points:

  • She is normally well behaved in school and works hard etc
  • She is polite, I'd say about 7 times out of 10 she remembers manners, and the other times she will say please/thank you after having been reminded
  • She adores her little brother and is very kind to him (sometimes too kind - I've caught her sneaking him biscuits etc!)
  • She doesn't lash out in anger, she doesn't hit/kick or break things etc
  • Basically when she's being good, she's lovely

Negative points:

  • If she doesn't want to do something she will flat out ignore me, or just walk away
  • She does things right in front of me that I'm saying not to do e.g. picking her nose (sorry, I know it's gross!) she will just look at me and carry on
  • She won't do things herself e.g. get dressed, she wants me to do it for her (and I'm rushing to get to work, so I do it 😞)
  • She answers back and has an attitude. She will say things like "I will only do X if you give me Y." I have never once given in to a statement like that but she still tries it
  • When she gets to the point of stropping, she will throw herself to the floor and scream. It doesn't happen every day but probably 3-4Q times a week at this point. Mostly at home, but occasionally when outdoors she will either run away when she knows I can't come after her (baby brother) or just slump to the floor and refuse to walk
  • Just general not listening and not respecting things, e.g. I tell her to put things away and she leaves them on the floor and then stands on them, they get broken. Yes a natural consequence but she doesn't remember for next time, even when reminded
  • It takes forever to do anything. I know kids can be slow at things but she is on another level. School want them to do reading, spellings and maths app every single day (five mins each) but it's impossible as it takes an hour to get her to read a very short reading book. She's very capable but just won't concentrate - generally messing about.
  • Bedtime is the same with messing about, constantly not listening, not getting changed, making loads of noise (baby asleep). Then when she's in bed she'll start getting up, changing her pyjamas, messing with stuff, peeling stickers off the wall.

In terms of dealing with it, we have a star chart system which she does like, she's really happy when she gets a star and she does behave if she's told she will lose a star. We give other "consequences" too e.g. if she takes too long with one thing there's no time for TV etc. I've sometimes said that I will confiscate something. But the thing is that I hate that I pretty much have to threaten her with these punishments in order to get her to behave? I don't want things to be like that.

And yes I try everything else under the sun - making it a game, let's race Daddy to get dressed, if you do 5 mins spelling you can have 5 smarties, do you want to ride your bike or scooter into school?, let's put the tidy up song on, etc etc. I just feel like I'm constantly on at her and I just want us to be able to chill out and have a nice time together like we used to! I love her to bits and she's so much fun to be around, it's just when the switch is flipped and she starts acting up that I find so frustrating.

The kicker is that I have an older child! And she wasn't like this at all. So I'm at a loss.

What do you think? Are we doomed? 😅 Am I expecting too much? Any ideas welcome please

OP posts:
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Darlingbudofmay · 29/01/2025 11:37

I could have written this myself! We are having the exact same issues at the moment, same age. She behaves brilliantly at school. We do not give in nor tolerate this behaviour at home but she still tries her luck. We are putting it down to her age, starting school and just carry on the way are, grit our teeth, carry on with the boundaries and not giving in and get through it!

It's frustrating though when we know she wasn't like this before September and her teacher thinks she's an angel!

Pinknotpurple · 29/01/2025 11:39

Sounds very normal ❤️

Whoknows101 · 29/01/2025 12:16

Sounds like my daughter & completely normal. Will pass with time, as long as you consistently stick to what you feel are sensible boundaries and expectations, even if your measures to implement them don't work all (or any!) of the time.

4 is still very young and the correlation between starting school and a change in behaviour is unlikely to be a coincidence. The key thing is that all your positive points are far more important than the negative ones which are all age-dependent. I'd personally be far more concerned if they were reversed, for example.

Must be hard to have such different behaviour from a second child; Have quite a few friends who going through exactly the same at different stages, with the older sibling(s) having been very straightforward only to find you don't have as much control over their personality & behaviour as you thought you did!

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namechangedcuzashamed · 29/01/2025 14:51

Darlingbudofmay · 29/01/2025 11:37

I could have written this myself! We are having the exact same issues at the moment, same age. She behaves brilliantly at school. We do not give in nor tolerate this behaviour at home but she still tries her luck. We are putting it down to her age, starting school and just carry on the way are, grit our teeth, carry on with the boundaries and not giving in and get through it!

It's frustrating though when we know she wasn't like this before September and her teacher thinks she's an angel!

It's so hard isn't it, I want to know where my girl has gone!

OP posts:
namechangedcuzashamed · 29/01/2025 14:55

Whoknows101 · 29/01/2025 12:16

Sounds like my daughter & completely normal. Will pass with time, as long as you consistently stick to what you feel are sensible boundaries and expectations, even if your measures to implement them don't work all (or any!) of the time.

4 is still very young and the correlation between starting school and a change in behaviour is unlikely to be a coincidence. The key thing is that all your positive points are far more important than the negative ones which are all age-dependent. I'd personally be far more concerned if they were reversed, for example.

Must be hard to have such different behaviour from a second child; Have quite a few friends who going through exactly the same at different stages, with the older sibling(s) having been very straightforward only to find you don't have as much control over their personality & behaviour as you thought you did!

That's exactly it, it's so strange to see the difference between her and her sister. Maybe it's the age, DD2 is a summer baby so started school very young, whereas DD1 born in Autumn term so one of the older ones in her class. I've read lots of posts on here about them being exhausted after school and just letting them relax, but if I did that then the school work would never get done!

OP posts:
TangerineClementine · 29/01/2025 15:00

Honestly OP, this all sounds very normal and it sounds like you're doing everything you can to address it. I also had a younger sibling who was much harder work and more defiant than his older brother and sister! Hang in there and it will pass. Mine is a lovely teen now.

Dragonfly909 · 29/01/2025 15:11

This is very interesting as my four year old is similar, only much worse by the sounds of it! She is, in addition to your examples, all of the things you said your DD isn't. Extremely rude to us, hits, kicks, breaks things, throws everything, trashes rooms, shouts and makes noise all the time, runs off in the street... It has been worse since she started school but she was always like this really. She has huge after school restraint collapse. She is very quiet and obedient in school and much better when we are out but absolutely loses it at home, consistently. Obviously there are consequences for her behaviour but it's really difficult to keep up with the volume of things we have to try and stop her doing, and I think she's not really in control of most of it so have to bear that in mind.

She is very loving, funny and sweet when she's not in complete chaos...!

I'm not sure if this indicates SEN or is normal 4 year old behaviour, so interesting to read these posts.

ChirpyDenimPombear · 29/01/2025 15:22

I think it’s pretty normal for children of that age to display defiance and pushing boundaries, it’s developmentally ‘normal’ if you like, though it can be frustrating. Sometimes the parenting style can exacerbate things and you have to adapt and change things up. With my son sometimes what we try works, other times not, it’s trial and error. Ignoring, and not making demands is currently working in our household. Basically making very small person feel like they’re in control. Naughty step, star charts and all that crap would not work in our household!

PartyOFive · 29/01/2025 15:56

My 4yo, May born, has just started acting up - like a delayed tiredness from starting school, now the initial excitement of first term has worn off.

Agree it's all normal and just being consistent will pay dividends, and I'd also suggest that at 4 I would rather let her rest than put too much pressure on school work - how much is she getting?

BertieBotts · 29/01/2025 16:14

(Sorry this took me a while to write, so I can see there have been new posts in the meantime).

I think four is such a tricky age because they seem so grown up, articulate etc but then their behaviour really doesn't match a lot of the time and it can be really confusing. Especially when they have moments of seeming so lucid.

When my (giant, hulking) 16yo was about 4 I really struggled and I remember reading a comment on here. I can't remember if it was my thread or somebody else's but the poster wrote "At four they are still babies really." It stuck with me somehow. And with the perspective of hindsight (I have DC 16, 6, 3) - they were right. Four is SO little.

At the same time it's kind of a middle way thing - you can't do too much for them or they just expect you to do it all the time.

My 16yo and 6yo have ADHD and one aspect of this is that their executive functioning skills are delayed in development. So I've ended up looking into this a lot and the typical developmental timescale of it and actually - I do think sometimes we (parents in general) tend to skip stages of this unwittingly. It's not a blaming thing to say that because I honestly wouldn't have had any idea had I not looked into it.

BTW, I think from your description she sounds exactly where she should be, and she is probably tired from working so hard at school. You could try a multivitamin containing vitamin D and C, this might help her energy levels. And try to make sure she has chance to rest and sleep enough.

I would ignore a lot of the annoying behaviour immediately after school like nose picking or answering back. Or see if you can diffuse with humour. Whatever you do, don't play into it by getting annoyed by it - it's likely that she already knows this is not acceptable behaviour and that's exactly why she is doing it, which also means that it should dissipate by itself once she is less tired and moody. Also, bring a snack to pick up, like a cereal bar or a piece of fruit or some rice cakes.

Talk to the teacher about homework and what their recommendation is. In some schools in reception, it's optional, or it's there to help set up good habits, if it's causing further stress then they may say not to worry about it. Other times the teacher feels very strongly that it is important to keep practising the skills at home - there might be a less-pressured way you could do that e.g. songs or games. Or it might work to put a time limit on homework so work on it for up to 20 mins and then stop, for example. Or they might say please do the reading but don't worry about other homework. It is likely better to read one page of a reading book and have this be a positive experience for her, rather than push her to read the whole book but it take an hour and be stressful for everyone.

Another thing you can do with homework is experiment with the timing of it - is it any easier to get her to do it e.g. on the way home (if it's a 5 min app) or as soon as you get back, or after a snack, or before dinner/after dinner, or at some other natural pause e.g. while waiting for a sibling to come out of their class/activity. And understand as well that it's totally normal for her attention span to be completely diminished after a day of working hard and sticking to the school rules - think about when you've started a new job, you tend to be totally drained by the evening and not able to concentrate for long even on something you enjoy.

I can get a bit more concentration out of DS2 as well if I get him to do something active first like bouncing or a "brain break" type dance from youtube. I don't think that's just an ADHD thing - I think it would probably be helpful for a lot of young children. Even adults sometimes wake themselves up with a walk around the block or some exercise. Letting her know that the exercise will "rejuice her brain" can help even if it's a total placebo effect - it might let her concentrate for enough time to get it done.

I tell her to put things away and she leaves them on the floor and then stands on them, they get broken. Yes a natural consequence but she doesn't remember for next time, even when reminded

That is a good example of where I think we often have too high expectations for 4yos. It's unlikely this consequence will help her remember, it's too far removed from the behaviour. If you want her to put something away, you need to be really close to her (ie within arm's reach, ideally even with a hand on her to ensure you have her attention) when you give the instruction and basically guide her to do it, then lots of praise when she does. It helps if it's a routine too, as she will do it more automatically then. And try to set her up for success e.g. for after-school coats and shoes, make the storage accessible and not overstuffed, or if she is pulling out 20 things to get to the one thing that she wants, try rearranging her storage and/or cutting down on the amount of stuff that is there in the first place - it might be she has a lot of outgrown toys/books/clothes/etc she no longer uses which are getting in the way.

What time is bedtime, and what time is she typically falling asleep?

Monvelo · 29/01/2025 16:18

I think 4 is quite a hard age emotionally for them. Plus she's just started school and is tired. You mentioned getting school work done?! If you mean homework then I would sack that off, it helps no one!

BertieBotts · 29/01/2025 16:25

Dragonfly909 · 29/01/2025 15:11

This is very interesting as my four year old is similar, only much worse by the sounds of it! She is, in addition to your examples, all of the things you said your DD isn't. Extremely rude to us, hits, kicks, breaks things, throws everything, trashes rooms, shouts and makes noise all the time, runs off in the street... It has been worse since she started school but she was always like this really. She has huge after school restraint collapse. She is very quiet and obedient in school and much better when we are out but absolutely loses it at home, consistently. Obviously there are consequences for her behaviour but it's really difficult to keep up with the volume of things we have to try and stop her doing, and I think she's not really in control of most of it so have to bear that in mind.

She is very loving, funny and sweet when she's not in complete chaos...!

I'm not sure if this indicates SEN or is normal 4 year old behaviour, so interesting to read these posts.

IME, that is not typical, that is more of an extreme presentation of stress behaviour and might warrant speaking to GP/HV/SENCo although school might be reluctant to push anything if she is not displaying the behaviour at school. You could ask them how she is doing in terms of social behaviour (does she make friends) and how she is progressing with the school work - is she picking it up as the others are or are there any areas she is struggling with? Any red flags in those areas combined with the behaviour you're seeing outside of school might be more compelling.

TBH more useful than a diagnosis for us was the book Big Baffling Behaviours by Robyn Gobbel, and reading about sensory needs - which has been all over the place, so no specific resource to recommend.

OP's daughter's behaviour sounds normal for a summer-born 4yo. Brief tantrums, a few times a week, not aimed at anybody else can still be normal at that age, especially when they are overtired.

namechangedcuzashamed · 29/01/2025 23:16

Thank you for the comments. To try and answer some of the questions/points.

How much school work does she have - Reading, she has to read 3x per week minimum. Spelling, it's just practising for a weekly spelling test, so amount of time spent varies but they advise 5 mins per day. Maths is on an app and she has to do 20 mins per week. Of course she's not going to get dragged over hot coals for not doing any of this but they all have rewards attached to them and she wants the rewards and is sad if she sees others getting them and she's not got them. But I don't think she's got the logic ability or long term memory yet to connect that feeling with motivation to actually do the work in the week! Thanks to the PP who suggested doing some of it in the car - I could cover off spellings and maybe even maths app in the car. I didn't think of that so thank you.

Multivitamins - Yes she does take these daily.

When is bedtime and when does she fall asleep - Bedtime is usually between 7 and 7:30, and then she will listen to audiobooks for a while and be asleep anywhere between 7:15 and 8:30, it depends obviously on how tired she is. We have tried a lot of changes around bedtime and it's finally settled into this rough time period, so it's not something I feel I can really change right now. If she's in bed earlier she just won't sleep and she'll mess around more, and end up falling asleep even later. Later bedtime will lead to overtiredness and more acting up.

Thank you for the reassuring stories, it's good to hear that kids who go through this are not necessarily doomed to a life of delinquency! 🤣

OP posts:
PartyOFive · 30/01/2025 00:04

Sounds like it's the school giving rewards for completing the homework? Like House tokens or something? Personally I find that quite a lot for reception, and as you say I don't think many 4/5 yos would be able to remember how much they love the reward at 4pm when tired at home facing some spelling practice.

Agree asking the teacher for their thoughts might help - my middle one was in reception/yr1 during COVID and we had some really helpful resources on different ways to practice spellings for the home schooling bits..I have sadly forgotten them but a teacher will surely be able to suggest things that may engage DD so you can get the stuff done more easily. If it's phonics tricky words she is learning then the phase 1/2/3/4 ones do crop up quite often just in general story books so I get my 4yo to play tricky words spotting while I read his bedtime stories - he has his little list of them, I make sure I exaggerate them when I read them and he says 'its a tricky word!' then we point to it on the list and I count that as him learning his tricky words (we don't do spelling as such til next year).

I also totally agree that 4 is still so little, and especially when you have a younger one it can be easy to start feeling the older ones are bigger than they are, if that makes sense. She sounds like a lovely, normal 4yo.

Dragonfly909 · 31/01/2025 09:52

@BertieBotts thanks, I will have a look into that book. We have a parents consultation coming up so I'll ask about those things. Although she seems to be doing ok, has friends and is in the middle for school work, no problems have been mentioned. She is a completely different child at school tbh!

BertieBotts · 31/01/2025 10:57

Bedtime sounds good OP so not likely to be contributing. Agree would keep it like that if it's working Smile

I think you're right that it's on you at this age to chunk the homework into doable bits per day, as she probably won't make the connection, so I just wouldn't give her the option. In the car is good (if they aren't travel sick) because it's sort of "wasted" time anyway so she's less likely to be thinking ugh I wish I could play instead. Esp if you can do things like spellings verbally as well. But do talk to the teacher if the pressure is getting to her, even if it's "just" a virtual reward thing - you should be building positive associations with school at this age, so anything overly stressful is counter productive to that. Rewards can feel like pressure because as you say - she'll notice if other children get them and she doesn't. Which arguably can be a good thing, but IMO not in reception. I am wondering how this feels to the children in the class whose parents don't or can't support them with all the apps etc - not your responsibility, of course, but letting the teacher know that your DD is finding things stressful (if you don't find that a routine change helps) would be useful information for them to take on board.

Check what the recommended vit D dose is for her age and if your multivitamin has it, as not all of them do and this can really sap their energy over the winter months. She will probably start getting it naturally from sun exposure by about April, so it's less important then, but at this time of year a lot of children in the UK aren't getting enough.

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