Appealing school place - tips for success?!

[IMBCRound2]

I’m hoping I’m worrying unnecessarily and my child will get the space at the only school I’d consider sending her to- but I’ll find out about two weeks after my due date for my second! I don’t want to be writing the appeal when I’m newly postpartum (and that’s assuming baby isn’t late!)

Has anyone been through the process and can provide some hints and tips for a successful appeal?

How was the actual panel? I’m hoping they might let me do it virtually if I’ve just had a baby but equally keep having sleepless nights picturing myself trying to string a coherent sentence together with a newborn strapped to me and wearing postpartum nappy in a room full of people!

Also parents do not have the right to a school place with matching faith (or absence thereof) for their DC. I wouldn't clutter up your appeal with irrelevancies.

At this age, her academic abilities won't matter one jot in any appeal. It's all about if the assigning of the school to her has been done correctly or not.

My 3rd child is off the charts clever, was reading and writing by age 2, able to do maths at a Yr1 level whilst in pre-school and there isn't a subject she can touch that she doesn't score way ahead of the pack in. But, in primary school it's really not mattered as the first few years is a lot of play based learning anyway. Having her in a school which focused on socialising and not "learning" at this age has done her wonders, because she WOULD have just sat at the back of the class with her nose in a science book instead of engaging with her peers if school allowed it. But they pushed her out her comfort zone, they knew she could do the learning but it really is no benefit to be so far ahead at this age.

She's now 12 and in secondary school and this is where her huge intelligence is now a benefit and she is soaring. I have no idea where she gets her smarts from!

So I say this gently, you need to drop all your desires for your 4yo to be treated like some kind of intellectual messiah at school and let her just be one of the pack. She might stay ahead, she might plateau but that's okay but if you become a pushy mum you will regret it and school, any school, won't thank you for it.

OP I was surprised to hear you were a teacher as some of your ideas about schools are unusual.
As you will know most teachers in a C of E school won’t be Christian.
As a Christian myself I have no idea why you would think C of E would say your child shouldn’t be here, they welcome everyone. No one is bothered how your child was conceived or how her family is set up.
C of E has all sorts of staff - gay vicars, divorced vicars, single parent vicars, vicars with disabilities, neurodivergent vicars and I would strongly suspect they have vicars conceived by all sorts of assisted conception techniques!

They absolutely would not be teaching students to try and convert others to Christianity and no child would be shamed - that’s bonkers to suggest it.

Op what kind of teacher were you? Were you in primary school? I’m surprised if so (or even if not) that you are so impressed by an FS2 class where DC are doing different activities - that utterly standard in every FS2 class I’ve been in (quite a few as a parent, infant governor and teacher).

Handing out the same worksheet for every child to do in FS2 is actually so surprising that I’m struggling to give it credit. If that was what happened in your child’s school they wouldn’t be the only disengaged child tbh.

I agree with others, if it does come to an appeal (and it may not) you need positive things the school can offer that your child needs. Letters from nursery or healthcare professionals can help here if they give that persons view that only this school can support her needs.

But have you checked last offered distance for the school in recent years? You might be worrying unnecessarily tbh.

I am also somewhat dubious that a CofE primary has “conversion” (as in we need to convert the pupils!?) on its curriculum. Catholic primaries can be fairly full on IME but CofE not so much. I cannot imagine that all or even any of the teachers in a CofE primary would be against donor conception, but you could always raise it with the head when your dd starts. It would be massively inappropriate for a teacher to flag this and single your dc out in any way. I taught dc who were adopted or who had been LAC and of course I never mentioned it at all, ever.

If she hasn’t been challenged during the day - it’s an absolute nightmare getting her to bed . That doesn’t necessarily mean academically challenged - it could mean climbing a really difficult tree - but realistically schools aren’t likely to be providing that so I can’t make that part of my appeal .

the academic thing got sort of blown out of proportion- she’s bright, she loves learning - i want to keep her love of learning up as much as I can . I want her to be happy - I think it’s probably the problem solving of learning she enjoys if that makes sense ? It’s not something I push or anything - but I do love watching how happy she is when she figures stuff out .

x post with @FloralGums there - agree with all that.

Secondary when here, primary when I lived overseas.

I was surprised by all the worksheets - it’s a lot of smaller village schools near me with split age groups (which can be brilliant imo) but I think that meant they were often reliant on worksheets because they had two lots of curriculum to manage - I can fully emphasise it must be a hard ask of a teacher , especially when you add in the fact there will be mixed abilities within each age group as well. The reception years were much more play and experienced based but obviously needed to look at the school as a whole and not just the first few years .

im really hoping I am worrying unnecessarily- I wasn’t aware that was an option so I’ll definitely have a look ( the headteacher said they had pupils from further away so hopefully that’s a good sign?)

thank you for the helpful advice re the letters and focusing on what this school can provide. Ill ask nursery if they would be willing to provide this .

yes - it was on the lesson plan for the term - I was a bit too shocked to ask for details. It wasn’t in my top choices anyway so I didn’t follow up- although I am now curious .

i suppose the DC thing is more … will there be representation of non-traditional families in books, or in phasing of questions, etc ? I imagine with a LAC child in the classroom a teacher might be more aware of saying ‘ parents or guardians’ for example. It’s not like i go in waving a flag but I’m very open about it with her so she will say things like ‘ my donor works as (…) too’ if it comes up in conversation. I know the new PSHE curriculum covers ART and DC so how will it be talked about? I don’t think it would be overt but more will it be accommodating of that part of her identity. And as mentioned above, it’s just a general discomfort that there might be some pressure to pray to a god that says she shouldn’t even exist- I know that there shouldn’t be pressure , but if her friends are doing it - or a favourite teacher etc I doubt she’s immune to that feeling of wanting to fit in.

interesting - i was educated overseas so didn’t go to a school with any religious connection so it’s all new to me! I’m also an atheist (raising my child agnostic) so didn’t have a clue the church’s position so i had read I could find about the guidance. I have no doubt there will be people who stand contrary to the any official stance and it’s reassuring to hear there’s such a diverse population.

It’s turned into a long thread and I’m not sure if you read my response to a previous poster -but in one school (for example) they had a long poster on the wall with all the different ways people might worship, and the children all wrote their name under their preferred style. I felt it could feel shaming if you were one of the few kids with your name not up there - and I can imagine it might be quite difficult to say you don’t feel comfortable putting your name up .

If you were a teacher here in the UK lately then you must know that there are all kinds of families and they always have to be referenced.

The kids in my form (secondary) had all sorts of family situations. I would never assume or vocalise anything that suggested that all children have a family of mum and dad, both their natural parents, married to each other and all their siblings are full siblings. That was probably barely ever the case. It was fine. It really wasn't an issue. Teachers today in secondary and especially in primary bend over backwards to support DC whatever their situation.

Your child's class and certainly their school may well have kids with one parent (mum), with one parent (dad), with two dads, two mums, parents of different races, parents from different countries; kids will have a step parent, step siblings, half siblings. There will be families with all numbers of children, there will be DC who are adopted, who are twins and triplets, who have small age gaps to their siblings, who have massive age gaps. It's all fine. I honestly think you are massively overthinking this.

Wrt the worksheets, apologies if I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about a reception class – where most DC will not be able to read tbh. Yes, worksheets will be used further up the school. But tbh I don't think use of worksheets is a reason to jump to homeschool if it's not practicable (and it sounds as tho it isn't).

My advice would be to check out the likelihood of an offer from your preferred school; accept the school you are offered; go on waiting lists of any you prefer, if relevant; and consider an appeal but be aware that it will not be easy to win, based on what you have posted here, sorry.

Edit: ah if you were educated overseas that explains the bizarre situation of you being in all kinds of different classes etc. Pretty sure that would not happen in England.

You’ve hit the nail on the head with your last paragraph - at her age, children will do / say anything to fit in. She is just mimicking what you say about God, identity etc. That’s how children learn!
Both my children went to church schools - one of the used to talk about God non-stop! As adults, neither of them are remotely religious in any way because they have been allowed to make up their own minds after finding out for themselves.

Right - need to learn my lesson about seeking guidance online and will now step away from this thread .

there’s been some very helpful posters so I’m going to follow their advice and hope for the best- If not , it’s back to plan A of homeschooling and at least I’ve been given ample warning that’s the most likely outcome so I can start getting myself prepared. At the end of the day, I just want to know when she’s not with me, she’s happy and that she leaves school equipped to do whatever she wants to do in life, with some good friends and she keeps wanting to learn and explore .

We applied and got a place but had a trivial case - they rejected our application but the PAN was 26 and they only had 25 in the (mixed year) class. So there was a space and they had to give it to us. I did find the going to the appeal panel a bit frightening, especially when we were escorted in by the council rep who was going to argue against us and told us there was no way we'd get the place.

I think your concerns about CofE teaching on donor IVF are misplaced - CofE are fine with IVF including with donated gametes. They did, back in 2003, express some "concerns" about fertility treatment for those who were not a man/woman couple, but they don't teach against it.

But more to the point, this is not relevant to your appeal. You are appealing for the school you want, and you are not appealing against the offered one so even if you think it might take a non-mainstream CofE view this is not going to be one that carries weight at appeal.

Remember that your appeal is a process by which you show (if not under ICS rules) why your DD really needs this school. It is not going to be won by views on pedagogy or religion - not because they are unimportant to you, but because they are nor relevant to the process.

Edited to add: @prh47bridge - anything you would like to add?

I I’ve clearly done a poor job in this thread of outlining what I’d put in an appeal vs why I’m hoping for that particular school.

i appreciate that religion isn’t grounds for an appeal (despite being a protected characteristic) but it is a big factor in why - personally- I would move towards homeschooling if she isn’t awarded a place . The DC identity is one aspect but I really want her to be ‘equally’ exposed to different religion so she can make an informed choice and i worry if one ideology is ‘pushed’ it might be difficult to do so fairly . For me it’s really important that it’s the good, the bad and the ugly - there’s some amazing benefits to religion but also some negatives (eg the human rights abuses carried out in its name ) and I do worry that wouldn’t be presented fully.

it’s also the only school that’s on my drive to
work so I don’t have to take a pay cut working fewer hours - obviously a part of my decision but sadly not able to be part of the appeal (for example )

My DCs' primary was "broadly Christian in ethos" (I think that was the phrase) and there were celebrations at Christmas and Easter – but there were also visits to a mosque and other centres of various religions, and there were also celebrations for Eid, for Diwali, for harvest, and for various other secular and non-secular occasions. I presume you would be OK with all of that @IMBCRound2?

Honestly (and I mean this in the nicest way) you are setting too much store by something that will not be a big deal. Lots of schools in the UK are CofE – it's often a historical thing and frequently it’s just the village school. The majority of families will not be religious in any way. It's all good. Bring your DD up to question what she hears and talk about it with you. Let her hear what is said and form her own views.

WRT the commute to school – you can look at breakfast club or a childminder before and after school. That's what lots of people do and it works well.

There is a set list of criteria which your child has to meet in order to get a place in a school. To be given a place your child must meet one of these criteria. If it is a state school ONLY these criteria are considered, so everything else is irrelevant. A non-faith school, won't take religion into account at all. Primary schools will won't take high ability into account, so that is irrelevant. Realistically appealing is only worthwhile if the process has overlooked failed to apply one of the set criteria which is relevant to your child, if they haven't your arguments will hold no weight.

I've got to say, as a primary school teacher myself, if we were at capacity and I was told you're getting another child who parents say is advanced, mum wants to do flexi schooling and look at how to extend her, my heart would sink. It's good to have parents input but school needs to be given a chance to do its job.

In 20 years I've taught some particularly bright children but probably only taught about 7 truly exceptional children who are off the scale with their knowledge and understanding. Often the bright children are lacking in another area and that's what reception is there for, to develop a well rounded child.

Wherever she ends up I would take a step back and consider what your daughter's strengths are and the areas your daughter will benefit from developing.
How is she socially?
How is she with turn taking and listening to others?
How able is she physically? I had a child two years ago who could play football with children a few years older at the age of 3, others who can ride a bike at just turned 4.

To add, you mentioned the teacher might have opinions about donor conceived children and I think you're (understandably) focusing on this as being bigger to the school than it is. You might tell the first teacher but by year 1, 2 etc they'll know there's not a dad at home but that'll be it. I judge parents on neglect and putting their children last not how they're conceived.

My children go to a state with really good outdoor provision for all years. They also focus on the 'whole child' and do lots of wellbeing activities and develop other skills. It really is a great school BUT they are very much my way or highway compared to other schools my friends children go to. As they have a strong identify as a school they make decisions and then don't listen to parents who aren't happy. Finally, my formerly outdoor loving 4 year old has HATED how much they're outside since year 4 so careful what you wish for!!

What I'm trying to say is no school is perfect. You're putting a lot on this school (even talking about sleep). Good luck

Reception teacher of 17 years and I’ve lost count of the children I’ve had whose parents have warned me in advance their child is gifted and needs ‘challenging’ or will be bored and maybe disruptive… conservative estimate would be 6-7 per year.

Actual number… in 17 years? Five. Two of whom were in the same class.

We've all been giving you honest advice.

Your reasons for appeal will not count for anything. Because you're reason to appeal is basically "I want her to go there".

Religious beliefs, how she was conceived, how bright she is will have no impact on the appeal whatsoever.

And also that the social side of reception and self care skills are the most important (ie can she play with others her own age, can she take turns, can she do up buttons etc)

Just be realistic that your appeal will fail.

All kids are bright and love learning....

Very good points @1AngelicFruitCake - I would add that we are being honest here and that is helpful.You're setting yourself up for a fall thinking that your reasons for appeal are going to cut it at the panel.

You also forget that your child is not unique or special in having a different family set up. Schools cope with this day in day out.

There'll be kids in these various scenarios:

• a mum and a dad at home
• two mums
• two dads
• single parent
• living with parent(s) and extended families
• living with Grandparents
• Are adopted
• in foster care,
• split between 2 homes,
• where the parent is living with two other adults,
• where their parent lives next door with their half siblings and new spouse, but they live with their auntie and uncle and they visit their other parent every other weekend at a contact centre
• a parent in prison
• a parent in the army they only see a few times a year
• an unknown parent

... all sorts of scenarios.

Your donor conceived child will not be the only child in a "different" circumstance and has no bearing on anything at all - so stop worrying about that side of things in that respect.

You need to get over yourself, wherever your child ends up at school, you won't be popular if this is how you speak