5 year old independence

[Dancinginthelight]

My eldest turns 5 next month and I’m worried about him.

He is a happy, sociable kid, started school in September and is doing very well, no complaints from school and only positive feedback!

At home we struggle with independence. As it stands, he usually refuses to go to the toilet by himself, he wants one of us to go with him. He says he’s scared (it’s upstairs)

It’s a fight for him to dress himself, again he wants us to dress him or help him get dressed or he will end up crying for us to do it.

He cries at the drop of a hat. He’s very, very sensitive. We have always had a very gentle approach so if we now lose our cool and raise our voice at him (we also have a 1 year old and 4 year old obviously does not listen to us) he will ask for an apology and tell us its not ok to shout. We always apologise of course, tell him he’s right about the raised voice but whilst he’s right, am I setting him up for unrealistic expectations of the real world? I love that he knows it’s ok to tell someone they are wrong and ask for an apology though!

He refuses most meals, he has 1 or 2 safe foods (unless it’s treats which he’ll devour) and we are in talks with the GP about a referral though they say he appears perfectly healthy and kids are just fussy around this age.

As mentioned we do have a 13 month old and I wonder if this is related. Sometimes when getting the baby dressed in their pjs, eldest will lie on the bed next to them and copy their sounds etc as if he’s pretending to be a baby and we are to dress him too. DP thinks it’s an attention thing and we should focus on each taking eldest out by ourselves without baby, to give him some time just for him.

Thoughts? Does this all sound normal? Otherwise he’s just a happy kid that enjoys all the usual stuff kids do! Just very, very needy and demanding and it didn’t used to be this way.

Referal to who?
How many different foods does he eat?

I think it's right to have expectations that he starts to dress himself.

What happens at school with undressing/dressing for PE?

My 5 year old is exactly the same and it got worse when her brother (now 10 months) was born. Suddenly needing help with dressing when she’s been at least attempting to do that since she was 2. Now asking us to wipe again after a poo when she has been doing it independently for probably 18 months. I do think it relates to seeing the baby having everything done for them and wanting that. My daughter lamented the fact she doesn’t get to ride in a buggy today 🤦‍♀️
no answers I’m afraid!!

I am going to be really honest*

I have an 11m old and a almost 3 yr old. My 3 yo doesnt do half this stuff

This bit got an incredulous snort laugh of disbelief.
he will ask for an apology and tell us its not ok to shout. We always apologise of course, tell him he’s right about the raised voice

In my house that would get "mummy shouldnt shout but you must not be a little shit do X.
Its very important that you do X y z.
And if you dont want mummy to shout listen / dont do X next time."

My dd goes to the toilet alone i supervise the end and mostly dresses and underdresses with a bit of help.

I'd be quite concerned about the little lord fontelroy factor.

*i caveat this with... I may well be eating my words in 2 years

I think you know yourself you need to be a bit tougher. Refuse to take him to the toilet. You will only have to say no a few times. If it's dark.... put on the light. Encourage him to Dress himself then make him do it himself. And please stop apologising for raising your voice. Get it done the first time and I won't raise my voice.

Five is still so little, and starting school and having a new sibling is a lot to deal with. Maybe give it a few more months? Sounds like he's doing really well at school, so he's definitely capable, maybe see if given time he'll just work through this clingier phase at his own pace? He sounds like a lovely kid.

And I'm sure your DP is onto something with taking him out for some time one on one of you can.

He's 5! My 7 year old son has only started to dress himself in the past month or two. I also think there's often a massive difference between boys and girls. My daughter was definitely a lot more independent a lot earlier than my son.

I hope all this continues for you!

However my now 5 year old at 3 was exactly as you describe. Very self sufficient, able to manage own self care etc. On starting school last year we had a huge regression in terms of her self confidence and ability to do things for herself. We get lots of baby voice, lots of “I need help”, lots more wailing and crying than I’ve ever had from her as a baby or toddler.

I put it down to them having to be so grown up and responsible at school that when she is in a safe place she feels the need to communicate by being a baby again. I’m trying to just ride it out but man is it frustrating! It’s been going on for over a year now and she is 6 next month with little sign of improvement. In school she is mature and very able academically.

If it didn't used to be like this then I'd say it's definitely linked to the baby sibling and starting school. I'd start building back to independence slowly. Make a star chart for getting dressed by himself (start with just easy things e.g. pants and socks and you help him with the rest and build up). Talk to the baby about how clever his/her big brother is "I'm going to put your socks on baby, I don't need to do DS1's shoes, he's a big boy and he can do them all by himself. One day he can show you how to do your shoes!" Etc.

Continue to take him to the toilet but get further away (in the bathroom, outside the door, top of the stairs, halfway up, at the bottom etc).

Spend time with him away from the baby. Make time for him to be the baby sometimes. He's still only little.

Apologising for raising your voice is fine, but you need to discuss further i.e. what did he do that caused the raised voice in the first place. For example, "You're right DS I shouldn't have shouted. Do you know why I shouted?". See if he knows. "I was feeling very frustrated/cross/upset because I asked you to do X three times and you just weren't listening to me". Pause for his feedback. "Why do you think it's important for you to listen to me about x?". Let him answer. "Because it's dangerous/we're going to be late for school/what you were doing wasn't kind. How can we make sure it doesn't happen again?".

It's good to be gentle but he needs to also understand the impact his behaviour has on other people. Everyone isn't going to be nice and gentle with him if his behaviour is unacceptable, not at school, not at clubs, not amongst his friends. It's in his best interests to learn this.

With the toilet thing I would try a gradual retreat. Go with him but wait outside. Then start going say, half way upstairs with him, then progress to watching him up and down the stairs. Tell him to leave the door open so he can shout down if he's worried. Etc.

The getting dressed, I'd focus on not crying for help but asking nicely for assistance with specific elements. I do this with my five year old. He can dress himself but sometimes wants help with specific aspects. If he asks nicely I help. Crying is mostly ignored. Again, you might need to work up to this.

Food - all five year olds are fussy. I'd work with the GP's suggestions on this one as you don't want to cause food issues.

As for the shouting thing. There is difference between firmly raising your voice and properly shouting. And letting your child tell you off is a recipe for disaster. You need to keep the focus on his behaviour. I would absolutely not be apologising or in anyway addressing my tone of voice until he's acknowledged that his own behaviour was wrong. Then if you feel you did shout and not simply tell him off, then you can say 'Sorry I shouted. I was frustrated. Next time, I need you to listen, do XYZ.' if you're just using a reasonable, firm tone, then ignore it.

He does it himself! Which not all of them can do according to his teacher

Thanks all. Reading through now

if he does it himself at school, could you ask the teacher to take photos of him doing just that. Then, talk with him at home about what a great job he does at school.

I would then use a process whereby you help him with everything except the last bit, eg shoes.

Then after a week of that, do everything with him except shoes and socks.

The next week, you help with everything except shoes, socks and trousers etc.

I’m assuming he started school in September that places lots of demands on children.

@Easypeasymacncheesy thanks! 😅
I pray it continues (having 2 under 2 was breaking me for a good while in 2024)

We def had some regression when no 2 arrived we indulged it a bit to "meet the need" but mostly were just silly with it lots of "goo goo gaa gaa" type stuff and role played "babies" in the same way we role play shops/Hospital/cafe/school etc.
We also emphasise all the stuff

I think the demands of school is a very fair point though...
I also think the 1:1 activities is a good idea

My 6 year old sometimes wants help dressing, but wanted it much more at 4/5. I thought it was more about wanting closeness and attention rather than because she couldn't do it, so I'd help her if she asked and sometimes encourage her to do some bits herself. Same for going to the loo by herself/wanting someone to come with her! She grew out of that. Mostly does her own clothes now but sometimes I'll help. They're only little for a short time and I'd rather not have a battle over it.

If he's doing it fine for school then it's probably for attention at home - but between a new baby sibling and starting school I'd just indulge him for a while longer personally. Give him the attention he's feeling he needs and notice and really praise him whenever he does anything himself.

We had a bit of this with the same age gap. We sometimes put on a song and challenged them to get dressed before it ended. What really worked is to point out how eldest was very clever for doing things e.g. DC1 you're amazing, you can put socks on. Let's see if dc2 can put socks on, uh oh, dc2 can't do socks yet without mummys help!