Codependent nanny?!

[AmIabigmeanie]

I have small children and work full time, so I definitely need help with them.

For almost 2 years we have had a babysitter/nanny, she has gradually gone up to full time having started just helping me out for the last 6 months of my 1 year mat leave so that I could do a few hours at work per day.

She is a self styled hippyish/spiritual/calm person, and to begin with I thought great with the children, particularly when they were smaller/babies. She's the type that is always asking you your star sign so she can tell you everything about yourself, and has about 400 dietary exclusions. But I thought she was absolutely great, particularly with the kids.

They are now 4.5 and 2.5 and I kind of get the feeling she doesn't want the younger one to grow up. They are both pretty independent little characters, and when they are with me I kind of let them get on with their random games / running around / make believe stuff. Then she turns up and she seems to create this vibe where the kids get really clingy and argue over her, but it's kind of like she revels in it? I think maybe I'm being ridiculous, but when the nanny had some time off recently all I really noticed was that the house was a lot calmer (I wfh in the main, and generally it's mayhem when the kids get home)

The younger one was off nursery today so she has come in, and tbh she has caused more trouble than she has solved. Lunchtime nap had without a nappy on, so now have to change the bed, but yet she was in there for half an hour whispering sweet nothings to this very robust child who generally falls asleep in seconds (and who isn't actually sick, just has an unidentified mild rash that no-one wants to risk at nursery pre Christmas).

I am getting quite frustrated, and whilst I need the help, I'm starting to think some of her behaviour is a bit odd / narcissistic / codependent.

She's single with few friends, if that might be relevant. She doesn't want friends as considers herself a bit of a loner but would like a partner. She's very attractive, but the few that have been on the scene in the time I've known her seem to end dramatically.

Am I being a bitch (do I sound jealous?) or am I right to have a niggle that perhaps this person isn't ideal to be around my children long term? I am starting to feel they are filling a gap in her life and she is acting rather needy around them, which in turn revs them up / disturbs the harmony in the house.

The hand that rocks the cradle springs to mind. You're not happy, i think it's best to part ways.

what on earth does her being attractive have to do with any of this?

Why no nappy?

It's not working for you, the rest is all fluff.

It doesn't need to be more complicated than she's good with babies and not great as they grow up.

Time to look for alternative babysitters.

very attractive - just adding context to the comment about not having a partner (or many friends). It was 2 words of many above!

No nappy - this is my point! Fannying around in the bedroom for half an hour with a child that doesn't need settling and isn't ill. Yet the one thing she does need (a nappy for naps) doesn't get done.

It's starting to feel a bit like it's more about what the children are doing for the nanny than the other way around, is what I am trying to say.

I think you’ve answered your own question. She also sounds like she’s perhaps not helping their independence which as they get older you want someone to encourage them to develop.
Perhaps it’s time for either a direct conversation - end of year review as her employer or you seek an alternative. Remember she’d be entitled to legal redundancy rights though if employed correctly.

I'd start with a direct question about her responsibilities, your expectations and start to gently reset the relationship. Why are you changing the bed for starters? It's very easy to have principles about kids not wearing pull ups at 2.5yrs if you don't have to deal with the consequences of not taking them to the loo before a nap.

I'm not sure I'd die in a ditch over the long settling in period. Your DC is a bit under the weather and if they usually settle quickly she must be doing something right if she's FT.

But have been there. We parted ways amicably. She's still in touch with the kids for birthdays and Christmas but was not very constructive in her behaviours when they were getting to an age where they needed to learn to clear up toys for example. And actively avoided playdates with other children because no one was as good a nanny as she was which made school a bigger adjustment.

@TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams thank you for your comments, I definitely think we do need to sit down.

The deal we have at the moment is that she is still 'full time' but younger is now doing some nursery days so she is supposed to be giving me some flexibility and yes, doing the laundry! And covering if kids get sick from school etc.

I think part of it is perhaps that I am resentful that I am paying for extra flexibility and cover and don't feel properly supported at the moment. But on the flip side, it's not that easy to find someone that is happy with the random arrangement, drives, etc. And the fact she is quite a solitary soul who adores the children does make her a bit more flexible for evenings etc when needed.

I changed the sheets yesterday, so they were fresh on, and I did that to get ahead of the week not knowing she'd end up having to do more hours today. But yes it was frustrating to have a clean bed ruined, and I said to her please can you sort that out, and btw you need to do it right now as the under-sheet is now wet and will need time to dry pre-7pm bedtime. And was generally probably a bit pass agg about the whole thing.

I'm not sure what to do. I do think part of the problem is that I have got the ick (to borrow a MN phrase and use slightly differently)

I know exactly the dynamic you are talking about. It’s a bit like she is playing a role of being the lovely adored nanny and the children are lovable props. My mother was the same, played a dedicated fantasy role as the worlds best mother but it fell apart when we got too old to stay with her script

@Happyinarcon yes it's something like what you say. When I go to the school gates to get my eldest, every other parent will say what an amazing nanny I have, one in a million, etc, and yet at home I feel like she's actually creating more trouble for me sometimes. Interestingly she has told me on several occasions that her whole family are narcs and she is LC with them all, which has only recently started to appear to be a potential red flag to me.

Fannying around in the bedroom for half an hour with a child that doesn't need settling and isn't ill. Yet the one thing she does need (a nappy for naps) doesn't get done.

What on earth was she doing? Singing and shushing like your daughter is a baby?

It all sounds a bit odd @AmIabigmeanie. Maybe she has a touch of the narc herself, and whipping the children into a frenzy where they’re clinging to her and fighting for her attention is narc fuel for her.

Maybe start to consider what you will do when they are both FT in school but you still need wrap around and holiday care. If she's good with the little ones and there's local demand there is no reason not to start managing her expectations that you intend to move to an au pair model or something else and make similar noises at the school gate. Risk is she is poached away tout suite but doesn't sound like you'd be too upset once you sorted yourself out.

Looking at it from another angle with regards to their behaviour changing when she’s around:

im a nanny myself and i hate working whilst the parents are home as the children act completely different then as to what theyre like when it’s just me and them in the house so this is something to consider. The change is behaviour could be because you’re still around whilst someone else is in charge of them. It creates confusion and different behaviour.

@Jellycats4life yes I think something along those lines. She was very reluctant to put her down for a nap in the first place and I insisted (LO naps every day! It was as if she wanted to get the benefit of hanging out with her on a nursery day). I think she was probably sitting there holding her hand or stroking her hair or something, which is sweet but as I say, not really necessary from my daughter's pov (though she's a softy and would like it). If the nappy had managed to be installed at some point during those 30 mins I might be a bit less wound up by it!

@TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams yes I have started to think along these lines, but we both occasionally travel for work and there has been a benefit to having a proper grown up in the situation (driving licence, not 21 etc) for those times. However the weirdness seems to be increasing perhaps.

@DaisyChain505 I think that's fair. When they were being very good and calm last week I did think maybe it was also a bit of an unmet need in them for being picked up by their parent at school, and then both parents going to the Christmas show, etc etc. I had to log off at 3.30pm all week and then catch up later and although I was beyond exhausted by the end of it, the kids perhaps benefit from an arrangement more like that.

I don’t think you need a reason. You have a bad feeling and they’re your kids so that’s enough.

Maybe message over Christmas break and say you don’t need her back in the new year?

She could quite understandably say this is unfair dismissal though and take you to court. You either need to make the role redundant and pay her off or take her through performance/disciplinary. Orrrr...get rid really quickly before she hits the 2 year mark with you. Unless you've changed some details, she's very recognisable from what you've posted too and could quite likely stumble across this post. Many nannies read mumsnet.

@Itsalwaysfools thanks, yes obviously I'll have to handle properly but good point on 2 years - due to the fact it started casually and PT it's nowhere near 2 years that she has had a proper FT contract with us. Although in practice I think nannies know that things change and if you give notice you can end their contract, I will look into that. She doesn't read MN, of that I'm quite sure.

Please do this by the book, you need to find some solid ground here, and if it’s been ‘proper’ employment for two years you need to make her redundant, and you can’t then advertise for the same role or hours either.

Oh I’ve just seen it’s not formally been two years. In any case, this is someone’s livelihood so if she’s not done anything particularly wrong and it’s now a clash of parenting style/things just not meshing you need to let her go properly and support her future employment by way of reference.

I also do not like working with a parent in the home, totally changes the dynamic and your working relationship and routine with the kids. Unfortunately since covid I can’t seem to avoid jobs where one parent isn’t around at least some of the time during the day.

If she is a narcissist, try to craft a good script ending for her so she can exit on good terms 😬

She’s definitely on MN then OP 😁

Eh, you can't sack someone just because she's started giving you the ick!

Put your big girl pants on and MANAGE the situation. Sit her down for an end of year review, tell her your changed expectations (it is fine to change expectations as the children grow) and monitor her performance. OR if you really can't bear to deal with things properly you need to give her proper notice and be very careful about how you replace her.

Her PT work counts as her existing contract by the way, in the same way as if she'd started FT and then dropped her hours. And I'm sure there's some new case law about casual also counting, but that might just be on holiday pay, you need to double check that quickly and throughly.

But for all she's a good looking hippy dippy, I'm pretty sure she's relying on your full time pay to pay her rent and buy her food and do all the normal things that normal employees do.

Thanks @HelloMyNameIsElderSmurf good feedback!

I am def not actually going to fire her for giving me the ick, although I'd say that whilst a nanny is an employee (under contract) they are also a part of the family and you're allowed to terminate husbands for giving you the ick! It is important that the dynamic is right.

But yes these are my 2 options, and I will do them in order: Put your big girl pants on and MANAGE the situation. Sit her down for an end of year review, tell her your changed expectations (it is fine to change expectations as the children grow) and monitor her performance. OR if you really can't bear to deal with things properly you need to give her proper notice and be very careful about how you replace her.

On option 2, there is a point at which nannies do become redundant. Surely that is ok if you give them like a year's notice? Do people really pay redundancy pay if they say - hey my kids are teenagers now, we won't need you after September 2025, etc. ??

The arrangement sounds a bit weird and overly personal. She’s your employee, I’m not sure what her attractiveness and personal life have to do with anything. I don’t think you need to be armchair diagnosing her with serious personality disorders to feel like she’s not meeting your needs in terms of basic care for the children eg nappies.

That’s fine, I presume you wouldn’t expect redundancy pay yourself then OP if you were told your job was coming to an end, even if it was something you might have expected? A nanny is an employee, she deserves the same respect. Unless it was a pre outlined temporary contract then yes, you bloody do need to factor in statutory redundancy as a legal minimum

Do people really pay redundancy pay if they say - hey my kids are teenagers now, we won't need you after September 2025, etc. ??

I mean, that's pretty much the definition of a role becoming redundant, so yeah. I think they do.