*TW* Fatality at nursery WWYD

[Enigma85]

Hi all, I'm on maternity leave with my first baby and I return to work in a couple of months. My LO will be 11 months old and starting a nursery she's been booked into for a while (it's connected to where I work). I had heard through the grapevine that there had been a fatality a week ago so I emailed them and they confirmed that there had been a tragic incident and it was closed whilst investigations take place and the staff are supported. They said they can confirm the fatality didn't happen at the nursery, and I have it unconfirmed from someone else that this was a choking incident so assume the child died at hospital but I don't know.

It has obviously really shaken me up, is absolutely every parent's worst nightmare, and I have suffered with intrusive thoughts since she was born which I've had support for so this has sent me on a spiral and I can't think clearly. Would you find another nursery? Or wait until the investigation has finished?

Any thoughts appreciated, and obviously my heart is with the family of the poor little child that has passed and all the staff.

I would find somewhere else, not because of the risk of choking but because staff mental health/ morale is going to be on the floor and that's not an environment where I'd want my child.

I would want to know what actually happened. Was this an incident that happened at the nursery, or something that happened outside the nursery to a child who attended it? If it were the former, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell I'd be trusting them with my child.

@khaa2091 your poor dd, what a heart breaking accident for all of you. My 3 yo had a bad accident, 2 rounds of surgery and 2 years of scar therapy. I'm so greatfull that it wasn't worse, but the pain of supporting them through it all is still indescribable.
Best wishes to your dd

I'd look for a plan b. Mainly because I'm not sure you'd fully trust them now and would be anxious all the time. Regardless of what facts emerge. Could also be be an allergy. A friend of mine used her hospital nursery where she worked.., and more than once they didn't adhere to her child's allergy flags and the child ended up in their own A&E dept.

In my area there were two nursery deaths very close together in time & location. But very different circumstances. One was deemed as negligence. The other drove an improvement in expectations re first aid & choking.

Choking can happen to anyone even if everything is done correctly sadly - when I was little our parish priest choked to death at his niece's wedding, it was awful.

So logically, the answer is to wait and see what the investigation finds as the nursery may not have been at fault at all. That will take time though.

And much as that's the sensible answer - I just don't think I could look past it, especially if DC hasn't started yet and you don't have a relationship with the staff or other families yet. I'd be looking elsewhere - and quickly as everyone else will be too so places will go quickly.

I know this isn’t what people want to hear but I wouldn’t send my baby to a nursery at all. Best look after your little one yourself, failing that either a competent family member or a professional childminder. Nurseries are a very unnatural environment for babies.

Of course they can happen anywhere, and all those posters saying they would be using another nursery for their child are being ridiculous (unless it is proven the nursery was negligent, which hasn't happened as yet). Kids choke, no matter how diligent their carers are.

I couldn't. Yes accidents can happen but you're trusting these people to take care of your child, and I wouldn't feel comfortable about it

It can take a long time for details to come out in these cases. So if you are feeling anxious it’s probably a good idea to look for alternate childcare.

A child died at the after school club at my children’s primary school and there were a lot of whispers. But when the coroner’s report was released they had a food allergy that nobody was aware of, including their parents. The staff were following their asthma plan but it was anaphylaxis. Just a terrible incident that could have happened anywhere.

That's wonderful advice. Really useful for all the mums who have to work to be able to afford to live. I'm sure your input is going to be really appreciated by OP.

Many nurseries are wonderful places and the children thrive and enjoy their time there. It doesn't suit every child. But family members aren't necessarily a better choice, and not all professional childminders are that great either. And not everyone wants to be a SAHM even if they could afford it.

Oh how very sad.
A choking incident can happen anywhere, in anyone's care. Most happen at home, with parents who are certainly not negligent. I don't think it would make me change nurseries- certainly not until I had all the facts on what happened. But I seem to be in the minority. If you're not comfortable in a place, you won't be at peace so maybe find another option. But, a choke or other accident could happen anywhere.

🙏🙏🙏

Thanks all I really appreciate your comments, thinking more clearly now I will take your advice and look for an alternative but not cancel my place there at the moment. I may well look into childminders they just make me nervous as only one person, so I worry that if they were horrible to her there would be nobody to witness it and stop it.

I'm also surprised it hasn't been in the media yet, I do keep looking. Thinking about it now though there is a chance it will close down so on that basis alone I need to try and find somewhere else. Not going to be easy at such short notice!

I think that sounds sensible.

There are some great nurseries out there (my DC started nursery at 8 months old and has absolutely thrived) so I hope you find one!

Rather than panic and change nurseries I'd firstly be checking what % if not ALL the staff are first aid trained. In case of problems, surely you'd want staff to know and be confident in treating your child? I am astounded at the poor ratio of qualified staff needed - first aid courses are not expensive.
However despite knowing what to do, it is of course possible that while able to do the first aid and prevent death at the nursery, it may simply have been an unavoidable accident, and that circumstances (first aid trained staff) meant that while they could maintain the life of the child it sadly did not prevent a death later.

It's tragic that the vast majority of folk simply do not have a clue what to do when someone chokes.

Having spent years as a Guide leader, of course I had years of first aid training, so when at a coffee morning with toddlers and a child chocked on a biscuit, without breaking my chat I simply popped child over my knee and slapped his back firmly between the shoulder blades, luckily the biscuit popped out. Anyway the room was in awe, so I gave a quick first aid lesson on what to do when you get a chocking child.

If you're reading this and think 'well I wouldn't know what to do if someone choked', please may I encourage you to do a short 1 day first aid course or at least look for a video on YouTube (I think St Johns or Red Cross may do them).

How is that helpful? Most women work at least a few hours nowadays, all the women I know used some form of childcare outside the home. I have experience of nursery (age 1-4) and childminder (after-school pick-up), and in my experience the nursery staff were far more attentive and there were more people around to see problems and help if necessary. Our childminder is great, but I can see she's busy and distracted with all the kids she's responsible for - it's more like a mum with masses of children, she can't be everywhere at once and the older ones look out for the little ones. Fine for a five year old, but I wouldn't have wanted to leave a baby with her.

Children can choke with their parents too, and in fact parents are less likely to be trained in first aid, and more likely to panic because it's their own child.

A good nursery with low staff turnover and experienced staff is absolutely fine for a baby. Of course it's not ideal, but mortgages need to be paid and women need to work. And the modern set-up of looking after a baby on your own all day, without mum nearby because you moved away for work, friends all at work or live too far away to visit regularly - it would send many women loopy.

I speak from experience of years of working in and managing a nursery, working as a professional childminder and raising my own four children alone as a single mum.

I said what I said and I knew it wouldn’t be popular, but I can cope with that.

Nurseries are a very unnatural environment for babies.

I don't think they are such an unnatural environment, really. Not being with mum for so long through the day is not ideal, I would agree - but what can you do, the working day for most people is 9-5 with a commute. That's what needs to change.

Humans evolved to live in small packs of families, with various people doing the childcare. It didn't used to be just one mum raising four kids on her own, that's actually quite unnatural from an evolutionary standpoint. We used to live in communities where everyone chipped in, and children were looked after by the nursing mothers, young girls and grandmas while fit, healthy grown women worked in the fields or hunted. There is masses of evidence for babies being breastfed by multiple women, it was quite normal. Shutting women away at home on their own is unnatural.

I am not saying all nurseries are great. Clearly some are shit. I visited one when I was looking for a place that really worried me. But good nurseries do not cause harm.

Thanks very much, you are very kind.
Very best wishes to your family as well.

Thankyou very much, I am grateful for the understanding (Social Services contacted me at work and most people don't understand how it so easy for these things to happen).
I hope things are going well with your family.

Thank you, it was years ago now, and DD came through it all like a trooper. She gets a bit annoyed sometimes when kids ask about her scars, but otherwise they don't bother her. I was a SAHM at the time, so luckily no judgment from colleges to deal with, that must have been awful, and definitely the last thing you needed.

I’m sure this is the nursery where I live locally. It’s big and busy. Have you looked at the local authority Nursery School? It’s really well run.

Kids can choke on their food. You can know all the basic first aid in the world, how to give back slaps and abdominal thrusts - if the food/item is truly stuck, there is no guarantee it can be cleared through those means.

If they’re choking long enough that they go into cardiac arrest then you’re looking at a much worse prognosis. So many variables, impossible to control them all.

Choking can and does happen in all different places, on all different items, and someone isn’t always culpable. You do everyone a disservice to imply that there is some special “nobody can possibly choke here” protective forcefield around every nursery.

@Marypoppins19 I'm not sure which one that is but a lot I've looked at don't do hours that we need, we need slightly longer days than a lot seem to offer round here.

The nursery has now re-opened after the police were satisfied it wasn't the fault of the nursery and Ofsted lifted restrictions with no actions so I'm having to take some reassurance in that. Thinking rationally it could happen to anyone at any time, so as long as food was served appropriately, the children were monitored and swift first aid given (which all must have happened otherwise they would've been closed down) we think we are still going to send our LG there. I'm not naive enough to think even if I had to option to pack in work and become a SAHM that something like that couldn't happen at home with me.