ASD DS5 - making friends when he's so moral

[stillsleeptraining]

DS5 is really struggling to make friends and part of it is that he's so black and white. If kids who he enjoys playing with do something that is against the rules, he labels them naughty and doesn't want to be friends with them. It's complicated because he'll let them play with him, but he'll distance himself. So there's no-one he will say is his friend and doesn't want any play dates. Obviously any social skills that have been hard won this year are going backwards.

We're very close and he's receptive about discussing things so I think he'll listen if I try to explain, but I'm at a loss how!

Any tips?

stop thinking it is because he’s “too moral” for a start 😆

Sorry @surprisedactually - what do you mean?

Is he happy with his social interactions though OP?

My son is 6 and autistic, he plays with kids at school and is generally liked but keeps his emotional distance. He isn't interested in play dates. I would like him to have more solid friendships but that is something I am projecting on to him, not something he currently wants for himself.

he’s not “too moral”

he is a rule follower

and in reception and year 1 school…there’s loads of rule followers!

is this all that you witness?

Exactly.

Very inflexible rule following and rule policing by children on the autistic spectrum is typically an anxiety response. The child needs the game to follow the expected rules and any child who does not rigidly adhere to the rules is unpredictable and very upsetting to many (not all of course) children on the spectrum.

People, especially children, are unpredictable and rules help keep them manageable.

Parents sometimes believe at the start that their child is extremely moral or extremely mature or a natural leader but unfortunately they are usually misunderstanding extreme anxiety and difficulty with unpredictable social interactions.

Most kids his age are rule followers - they want the behaviour rewards for being good.

My experience of having kids at primary was that the kids who don’t follow the rules eventually end up not having people to play with because the others won’t accept “cheating “ the rules and the playground supervisors are too few to get adults to intervene.

Are the “rule breakers” dominant personalities who are difficult to say no to ? This is a different problem that kids need to work out and I think most end up avoiding that kid while others end up bullied into doing what the dominant kid says.

If it’s the sort of play where kids make the rules as they go along then I understand why that throws your son.

Does your school playground have a section where an adult supervises some playground games? My kids schools had this and it was an adult leading games like Where’s the time Mr Wolf? for kids who wanted to play with people but didn’t have the confidence/skills to play with classmates. The adult in charge would sort out disputes which may make it preferable for your son.

I know what you mean by "moral". I think it's the correct word to use, going by my own experience of being autistic. Pretty much everything is "right" or "wrong", and it's very difficult to handle other people doing the wrong thing when you know what's right (even if it's not a common view). That's basically what morality is. I remember being angry with my friend for cheating on her boyfriend when we were teenagers, although I did continue being friends with her! As an adult I've found it harder to let things slide, though.

I wouldn't consider that a social skill, though, and doubt it's something you can teach him. It sounds more like you tried to teach him to not be autistic and obviously it hasn't stuck, because he is autistic. He doesn't have to be friends with people he doesn't really like.

child re this age generally fall over themselves to be first in line to tell tales to teacher of rule breakers!

are you witnessing all these interactions?

@SatinHeart - that's a really useful perspective, thank you.

Oh yes, he loves to tell tales! That's another one I find hard to explain!

I'm reflecting on my use of moral, but he's able to make the link between what he doesn't like and why (ie guns hurt people and that's wrong, so kids who play with guns are wrong (I swear this didn't come from us as I'd read about this scenario!), or kids who hid a toy for an hour so they could play with it first after lunch weren't sharing and that would make soandso sad they couldn't find it, therefore they're dead to him). And he's outraged about any injustice.

@CaptainBolt - really appreciate you responding and your perspective. Might be a bit unfair saying I'm trying to get the autism out though! I'm neurodiverse myself and I learned the concept of nuance/ being less judgemental later in life and I'm a lot happier (and nicer to be around!) as a result. It would be nice if he didn't have to wait until he was nearly 40 to chill out like I did!

@SonicTheHodgeheg it's less games themselves and him writing people off as "naughty" forever as soon as they make a mistake. They're generally all nice kids.

but my point is… the majority do

where is this happening op? at school? in which case, how do you know?

Yes, this makes sense. My autistic friends tend to be more moral, or at least, more socially and politically aware and care a lot about ethics and politics, than I'd say is average. Arguably, morality is a universalised, wider version of rule-following — on a more philosophical level. None of my autistic friends are into arbitrary rules or uncritically accepting of social mores or even laws, but they have a strong sense of right and wrong, compassion and kindness.

It sounds like you need a way of explaining that a friend might do something naughty, but not be a bad (or "naughty") person.

Perhaps a way of saying we don't like the behaviour, but can still like the person?

Explaining it in that way sets a rule or structure (see the behaviour as separate from the person), while allowing some flexibility in there.

@Fifferfefferfeff That's it! Thank you!

Is he 'naughty' or does he get over it when he does something wrong?

I'm an SEN teacher and work with lots of Autistic children. I would make a chart with days of the week on (or each morning/afternoon) and ask him to choose a few children. Put their names (or symbols/pictures) on bits of paper, laminate (or cover in tape) and velcro everything and at the end of the day ask him if they were good or naughty. At the end of the week get him to look at the chart and then he can visually see that they were good most of the time so it would be ok for him to play with them for the good bits, hopefully this might encourage him to let them 'in' a bit more.

If you think it's a bit weird doing this with other kids you could ask their parents, sure they would be ok if they understood why. Some autistic kids need things visually black and white in front of them to understand stuff sometimes.

@Sunshine9218 That's so helpful! Thank you