Grown up relationship with mother

[oldandconfused]

Hi all,
I wasn't sure where to pop this and I'm not sure how to start so I'll apologise for it being a bit long and rambling.

I'm a fully grown up human of over 40 but my relationship with my mum has become increasingly challenging lately. We lost our Dad about 3 years ago and whilst she's fully independent she's finding it a little lonely I think, which I totally sympathise with. I call her as regularly as I can but she never calls me. She says 'your dad always said I should let you live your lives' which I tell her is fine, but also that she can call whenever she likes. She still does not call. I've sort of gotten over this bit now so I just call her when I can but last night's discussion took a turn.

She told me she felt like she lost me and my sister when she lost dad and that it would have been easier if she'd gone first because dad's like their daughters best. She told me she wanted me to 'talk' to her more, to not just tell me about work and what we're doing in the garden.

The thing is, we've never had that kind of relationship, even when I was younger I was always uncomfortable talking to her about things and I'm not sure why. I think that my discomfort now is because I've never had that sort of 'friend' relationship with her and she still insists on doing things like telling me off for chewing my nails. She wants people to always be 'honest' with her, she says she'd rather have someone tell her she looks fat but I simply don't think that's true because when we (me or my younger sister) do say something slightly more challenging she throws her hands up and says 'oh i'm always doing it wrong' and then sulks and won't talk to either of us for a week.

In yesterday's challenging conversation I tried to be a grown up. I told her I felt that every time I asked her anything 'difficult' she just shut down and told me that I should 'drop it' or that she 'didn't want to go in to details' because it 'doesn't matter'. She said she always struggled to express herself as a child and that people were always cutting her off. And I said that was fine, but right now she wasn't a child and I was giving her all the time in the world to tell me things and she still didn't.

On discussing it with my sister after she said you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. You can't criticise because she sulks and refuses to talk to you, so you have to sort of just suck it up and put up with it when she says your partner eats too much, or that you're disorganized, or that you just aren't doing it like her and dad did it.

I am just a little lost. I don't want to abandon her because she's still my mum and 70% of the time she's perfectly nice. She's very anti therapy, she says that people only have therapy if they don't have friends, clearly a problem because I think she would benefit from it. Do I just put up with her telling me that I have 'no common sense' and other minor criticisms just to keep the peace...?

Any thoughts from anyone much appreciated. Especially if your mum never stopped being a 'mum'!

I just wanted to replied to this as I’m in a fairly similar situation in that I lost my father about the same time and my mum expects me to call too. I think if you explain how you have to us that you’ve never had the friend relationship with her and always felt cut down if you said something ‘truthful’ it might sink in for her. Please keep mentioning therapy as it has helped my mum so much and meant she is now living a happy and pretty fulfilled life without always depending on her kids. It’s not really your job to be open and chatty to her if it’s not how your relationship has been. Just keep defending your position kindly and mentioning therapy. Things will get better.

I would just let her sound off and then tell her about your day, etc, as you are doing. If you've always had that parent-child relationship where you're the one being talked down to and told you're wrong then it's hard to change that into a friend relationship.
I remember hitting 50 and thinking that now my mum would have to treat me like an adult/equal. Nope! That was how she was.

Yeah, there does sound like there's stuff going on for her which is impacting on her relationship with you. It could be that your dad's death is causing her to feel a bit lost in the world but what also struck me was when you mentioned about her struggling to express herself as a child and always being cut off. Its interesting that she appears to be doing that to you now particularly when she thinks she's being criticised. There could be a pattern here for her, stemming from her childhood and I think you're right, therapy would help. You sound patient and kind and I would continue doing that but I would also consider telling her how it makes you feel when she criticises you or shuts you out. I had a difficult relationship with my mum; she'd often send me to Coventry for no clear reason but as soon as I started changing how I responded to her (eg not feeling responsible for her behaviour, putting in boundaries) I started to feel better and was able to maintain a relationship with her. Ironically it was therapy that helped me understand my relationship with my mum and to get to a better place and maybe this is something you could consider for yourself. Your needs matter too OP and you shouldn't have to put up with criticism to keep the peace. All the best.

@oldandconfused I am mom to 4 adult youngsters and Nana to 5. I don't believe in a friends relationship with your children. I never have nor will. I'm their mom first.

You can't be "friends" with your children. That's not how it works. We have a loving, close relationship. They know I'm here and would never judge choices, etc. That's been proven over the years by what they do come to me about.

Equally, I'm honoured they do. However, there is stuff I wouldn't discuss with my children and vice versa. That's what you have friends for.

Your mom doesn't sound like she wants to help herself, which means you can't change her only how you react to it.

My only other suggestion is CRUSE, which is bereavement services, non-profit making charity. Link below.
Though from what you said, she probably wouldn't be interested.

Just carry on doing what you have always done. When she says, "You're not doing XYZ," be truthful with her firmly and gently.

If she doesn't speak to you for a time that is on her, not you. She will come around. Don't enable her to stay as she is. It's tricky, I know.

I lost my husband 6 years ago in my 50s, so I get it's not easy. However, she can't live her life through you

www.cruse.org.uk/get-support/

My mum never calls me either. She’s been like that for years. She’ll have a good old whinge and wine if she doesn’t think I’m calling frequently enough though. Not to me (although occasionally in a passive aggressive way) but to my brother or someone else. She also never invites us anywhere and suggests we do anything so it’s always on me to invite her to ours, to suggest we go to her or ask her out to lunch which means we see her less than if it was an equal relationship. I’ve kind of given up hoping she’ll change and just try to manage my guilt that I don’t see her more or speak to her more as I know I genuinely would do if she put any effort in. I think it’s not that she doesn’t want to see us she just thinks we’re too busy or perhaps just has lost inclination to make arrangements as she’s got older. She also shows no real interest in me. Never asks me how I am even when I ask her in a message and it would just be polite to ask in return!

thanks so much everyone! i think for me it's just nice to hear that other people are at least experiencing some of the same things! part of the issue I have is that I do feel this 'guilt' that she's my mum and I should be doing everything to fix this, etc etc but as many of you have said, that's not actually good for me and it's not my responsibility to manage her feelings and behaviours.

the other part is that she's definitely struggling with what i've come to know as 'declinism'....nothing is as good as it was in her day. my sister in particular struggles with this as she's raising a child and my mother is occasionally quite critical of how her granddaughter is being raised....'we didn't raise you with a lot of television' etc etc. My niece is perfectly polite, well rounded, good at school but a little socially awkward which is fine, she's eight, she'll grow. but of course it doesn't stop my mum criticising how my sister is raising her to me.

I'm going out on a limb against all my previous convictions and i'm going to try a self help book before therapy. I actually love learning and i think learning without another person there first will be good for me and I've heard good things about both 'adult daughters, difficult mothers' and 'self care for adult children children of emotionally immature parents' and I think the more I learn, the more patient I will be with myself and with her. many thanks everyone for your insightful inputs

Shes still grieving. Its so difficult to lose. A life partynwr. Her world is not what she knew. Everything is different

Would she consider grief counselling ?

I suspect not. Her line about counselling or therapy, if I didn't mention it at the top, is that it's for 'people who don't have friends'. But she's also always reluctant to ask her friends for help so I suspect even if she is miserable, she wouldn't go telling them about it. It's a bit of a vicious cycle. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be a great idea, she just won't be open to it.

Similar here. My mum never treated me as a person, never listened to me as a child/spent time enjoying time with me/ I would never have brought a problem to her to solve, it would never have occurred to me
She was critical about my friends and boyfriends. She would stop speaking to me if I ever did something she didn't like

Now I think she'd like to have a friendly relationship with her but I can tell her NOTHING. I was taught for so long to never rely on her for emotional support that now I just can't. Like, if I didn't like the cut the hairdresser gave me I wouldn't even tell her. I would feel too vulnerable and like it was too personal. If I was away from my kids (say at a wedding) and she asked how I was without them I would say "oh they'll be having a great time with their babysitter". I would never say "I miss them" or "I'm delighted to have a night away" . I literally cannot bring myself to share anything with her

I think your mum actually told you why she is like this - she wasn’t heard as a child and her emotional needs wasn’t met.

So as an adult mother she unconsciously did the same to you. It wouldn’t have been on purpose but that’s why you feel there wasn’t that closeness.

Id buy her the book ‘Doing the work’ by Dr Nicole LePera. She will see herself as a child and she will also see herself as a mother. It’s a bit of a light bulb moment.

I got the book to help me move on from my divorce but it takes a deep dive in to your childhood and I seen the impact my mother had on me - and also the impact I’ve had on my kids - none of it intentionally. But seeing it in black and white is a bit of an eye opener

If she has an understanding of her own childhood and the impact it had on yours and the relationships she has gone on to have - it might break her walls down a bit for you to both to move in to a new relationship.

I used to laugh at the phrase ‘generational trauma’ but it’s real and we carry shit from our parents, who carried shit from there parents ect..

I really recommend it and it could really give you and your mum a new start

So I was listening to Nedra Glover talking about boundaries this morning and I think that might be a good way to potentially start to explain things to her, at least on the 'sharing' front. One of her examples was that I don't share anything about my relationship with my DH but I've absolutely never done that with her, we've never had that kind of relationship where we talked about things like that and I think the way I hope to broach that with her is that I have many friends who I do not share that information with because I have boundaries, if she really wants to be 'friends' with me then she needs to realise that I can put those boundaries in place with anyone because they're for me and my own mental health. There shouldn't be no boundaries in our relationship just because we're related.

And I think the other thing these posts have made me realise is that if she really wants to be friends and share and all that stuff then she needs to stop behaving like my mother, she needs to stop telling me I've got no common sense, or to stop biting my nails or whatever, because those aren't really things a friend would say to me, at least none of the friends I've got at the moment.

I think overall this is going to be a really difficult conversation to have but I'm hoping it will help both of us.

Hi @oldandconfused I agree, even in relationships with family members its OK to put in boundaries. How other people interpret our boundary setting is down to them and we can't be responsible for their reactions. I had difficulties with this and I realised I wasn't putting in boundaries as I was seeking to please people particularly my parents. It took a lot of therapy for me to unpick this to be honest but I'm getting more used to expressing my needs now, though it still gets a reaction from some relatives. If you're interested there's a book called 'Set Boundaries, Find Peace' by Nedra Glover Tawwab, that uses evidence based practice (CBT) and exercises for you to work through. Also agree with @Suzieandthemonkeyfeet about generational trauma; it was a wake-up call for me to realise that trauma was being passed down the generations in my family. I went through some strong emotions until I accepted that my mum's behaviour was due to her own abusive upbringing. I'm glad that I reached that place of acceptance as she passed away a few months ago. Wishing you well OP.

I have this with my own mother, despite the fact I am nearly 43 and will have a 20-year-old child in a few months I still feel that she sees me as a child rather than an equal. I find with both my parents they still tell me off or talk to me as if I were a child and wish they could relate to me more as an adult like they do my brother, sister-in-law and other adults. Similarly to OP, I got the comments about having “no common sense” when I was younger, usually in jest or frustration which I realise now but I took it to heart, same as being told I couldn’t make decisions for myself as I believed it to the extent I allowed an ex to control me for years and feel I have to do what pleases my Mum and Dad rather than what I am happy with. Sometimes I get the impression that I am upsetting them or I will fall out with them if I go against what they want or disagree with them, even though they are generally supportive of my decisions.

In terms of “sharing” my parents expect me to be open with them and can be overly concerned if I don’t want to tell them a minor detail although they respect my privacy overall. They find it difficult to tell me things because they worry about how I would react as I’m sensitive to any criticism and can find change or uncertainty difficult to cope with.

I have purchased the book mentioned about boundaries and started reading it on the Kindle.

You sound like you are feeling guilty. AND your mother sounds like she wants YOU to fill the void in her life , left by her departed dear husband. Some people need a long time to adjust. Is there any local social groups or organisations needing volunteer work. If she had more outside interests then that could help recover from the awful shock of bereavement. Anything which involves meeting different people could help. She may just need your input until the grieving process starts to balance out. I should try to support her. Its a terrible feeling when someone eventually no longer there and we feel we did not do our best for them- its heartbreaking. Amen.

My dad was wonderful when my mum was alive, but after she died it was like a part of him was missing and he couldn't get over it. He became quite upsetting to be around at times because he was so depressed. Sometimes he'd be happy and then it almost felt like like was sabotaging it because he felt like he shouldn't be happy without her. Add into the mix how a lot of elderly people become obstinate and set in their ways it could be quite difficult to deal with. Trying to "fix it" meant I just got angry with him because I was too invested. I found the easiest way was to just let it wash over me. I did the phone call, visits, lots of "listening" and nodding along but not really taking in what was said. Things said included rants about my brother, horrible things I did as a child (he was a loving, kind dad and these were normal childhood things magnified and rewritten over time in his head). Its lovely to talk about boundaries and therapy, but if someone doesn't want to help themselves I think it just makes everyone unhappy to continue trying (he went to therapy and the therapist got upset in sympathy which just validated the depression for him). Withdrawing emotionally but still being physically present caused the least hurt all round. I don't regret doing that, but now he's gone I do regret the arguments trying to turn him back into something he couldn't be any more.

I completely relate with the relationship you have. I’m afraid I don’t have the answers but I think this will always be your relationship. If she is the one who needs to change to get the relationship she wants but ultimately doesn’t do it then all you can do is work with the relationship you have now.
My mum sounds similar. She doesn’t empathise with anything, she plays down any problems I may have as me complaining about nothing, she criticises my parenting and most choices I make in life and generally just doesn’t “get” me. She also goes round telling people stories about things I did as a child/teenager as though she’s stuck in that era of our relationship.
Not once has she ever discussed her feelings and she has never even allowed herself to be negative about anything in front of me and I think that’s maybe why she struggles now. It’s like she’s in permanent protection mode even though I’m an adult now and can handle it if she says she’s unhappy about something. Maybe that’s what’s going on with your mum, she thinks that by opening up about her struggles and feelings that she’s no longer protecting you?

I'm sorry to hear you're experiencing this after the loss of your dad. Slightly different situation here, my parents went through an acrimonious divorce years ago and dad became estranged and disappeared away to another country with no contact. My mum turned to me as her confidante, person to sense-check, etc which has worn me down slightly over the years and now she doesn't like it that in my mid 30s with a young family I don't want that role anymore.

I can really relate to the comments / not being able to take any criticism. My mum cannot accept any criticism without taking it personally, and if she gives an opinion and I disagree, even politely, she sulks or says things like "I can't do anything right" so sounds v similar. I can't make jokes with her about something funny she's said or done (like I used to be able to) as she will burst into tears. I'm on eggshells much of the time. She says I'm too lenient with my toddler, then says I should relax more, says I should be less stressed (just been signed off work because of severe anxiety but she never asks how I am coping).

I'd say it's unlikely that your mum will change, so you perhaps need to just focus on what you can control I.e boundaries and your own thoughts about the situation and how you can be happy and calm in your own life, without her enmeshment. Therapy may help.

Hello OP my mother is 82, quite emotionally difficult and demanding. Lives alone. I found two things really helped. Committing to speaking with her everyday even if just a 3 minute call “to hear your voice” this made her feel loved and reassured and helped manage my guilt about her loneliness. Paradoxically speaking to her more made her less demanding and ironed out her sulks and moods when in the past I hadn’t called “enough”. The second was to accept the idea of “rupture and repair” basically that we are all in a constant cycle of disrupting and damaging our relationships and then healing them and making them better. We are taught that conflict and upset is unnatural, shameful and wrong but in fact it is natural and to be expected. Once you start seeing the cycle and stop being scared of it it really does help. I even talked to my mum about it and it has helped us to make up faster after our semi regular disagreements (because she has been criticising me or being unreasonable mainly). Anyway I hope that helps and I really do wish you the very best: mother/daughter relationships are so primal and important. We deserve to be able to enjoy our mothers and mutually share the love.

I would guard against taking the responsibility for another adult and all of the communication and one way emotional support. This is likely to resentment and unspoken anger.

Your mother is responsible for herself, and her own life, if others are rescuing she is unable to really take the action she needs to live a more fulfilling life. And she may choose not to have the kind of life you would describe as fulfilling anyway. Please be aware there might be a difference in expectation here. Your mother's idea of a good day might be that she simply gets through the day for example.

I would set x day(s) per week where you will call her briefly to check in, if you want to. It might be twice a week and inform her that these are the days you will call, and you would welcome calls outside of these days from her if she wishes to talk.

I would engage with her emotional well being and then chat lightly and keep the calls brief. You are not responsible for making the conversations deep or a certain way. You are not responsible for making her life better or happier, she is responsible for that. Ask her what she intends to do about x, y and z if she complains, keep gently reminding her that she is in charge of her own life.

I would get some counselling for yourself, to support you with this, because I don't think she has been a mother to you for years which is why you are struggling to manage this situation now. You say she is 'nice' 70% of the time, which means for 30% of the time she isn't being nice, and I wonder what that looks like?

A constant stream of low level critical comments will be eroding your self esteem and confidence, and it will be impacting you. It is not okay for her to continue to do that, and I think you should stop her as soon as she starts. 'Mum I can't go into that now, I will call you x day, I have to go now'

There feels to be an element of people pleasing going on here op, and this isn't good for you. Whilst it is sad your mother has lost her husband, you have also lost your father and I wonder how much interest she takes in how YOU are managing.

Take control of this situation by setting some boundaries that work for you. Choose to stop the nasty comments immediately when they start by ending the call. Hand the responsibility for her life back to your mother. Make it clear that you care about her, but the onus is on her now to rebuild a life that interests her.

It has been three years I might also add.

I think the 30% of the time she isn't actively nasty, it's just constant small things, all the time. Which can be very draining. I mentioned I'd lost something the other day (the box for a jigsaw puzzle I believe) and she moaned 'oh [name]' and you could hear her eyes rolling. It's like she's never lost anything and I am a failure of a human for losing an object. It's the obstinate, inflexible opinions on aspects of my life she really has no business having opinions on that I find increasingly wearing and it makes phoning and interacting feel much more like a chore than it should be frankly.

I'm definitely doing my best working on my self confidence. Part of the problem I have is I work in an industry where luck seems to play an extremely significant role in success (no, I'm not an actor!) so self confidence at work is thin on the ground at the best of times so it's important to either have it within you naturally or to try and find it at home.

I'll keep everyone's comments in mind and continue to try and find some peace and joy in all my other relationships!

The only sure fire way of recovering from your self confidence and self esteem is to limit your exposure to those stripping it away. There is no short cut or easy route. Make the calls extremely short, and end the call the minute she starts on you - don't share too much information for her to roll her eyes at.