10 year old won't use toilet

[Katiemonkey15]

We are at our wits end now with 10yo dd who has fairly frequent accidents in her pants because she just won't go to the loo.

She eats a good diet, no food allergies (we tested), no learning or behavioural issues and nobody else in the family has any issues. We have a 3yo who just toilet trained like a dream yet were dealing with this with a 10yo. I do try not to get too cross or overly embarrass her about it but it's really tough because she will literally sit on the sofa and poo her pants rather than take herself to the loo. Sometimes her sister will tell me that she's doing it cos she can tell by her body language (and the smell and somwtkmes noise) but dd herself just sits there and shows no urgency to get herself to the loo. Unless I frog march her and make her sit she won't go to the loo at all.

Have tried incentives, punishments and nothing seems to work. GP thought she might be constipated so we tried laxative drink sachets for a while but only made it worse as gave her diarrhea.

Anyone any advice on how to basically re-toilet train a ten year old?

Just a thought OP, is DD jealous of her 3 year old brother? Perhaps she feels left out and is trying to get your attention, by pooing? Is her dad around? If so, what does he think about this sudden change of behaviour?

Try offering a trip to Disneyland (or whatever rocks her boat) if she goes to the toilet autonomously for a month..

@penjil
Nothing that I know of or that she can explain to me. Never had issues before.

@getsomehelp
I've tried rewards and she's lied about doing poos in the toilet to get them only for me to discover pooey nickers just the same as before. Shes hidden dirty pants in the bin when ive made the reward about keeping them clean. Unless I physically accompany her to the loo every time or tell her not to flush until i go and see for myself every time it's very hard to know if the incentive is getting us anywhere.

Made everyone a very high fibre breakfast this morning as constipation conscious since so many posts saying that could be it. Everyone else in the has already done a poo as a result but not dd. I really think she's deliberately holding it in and does need to go as she's passing wind but doesnt seem to be uncomfortable. Have sent her to the loo several times but heard her walking about and messing around in there and not actually sitting on the toilet. I just don't get it.

I can understand how this is driving you mad and how awful it is and I also understand how you have resorted to getting angry and punishing etc.

But no 10 year old girl deliberately soils herself without there being a reason for it. Especially as this is something new.

One fairly common change of behaviour can be fear of puberty (some young girls develop eating disorders to try to prevent some signs of puberty) and trying to remain ' a child'.

You've not mentioned her Dad- is he around at home?
There's a biggish age gap between her and your other child, so is that a potential issue? Is like another poster mentioned, your daughter jealous and this is a way of getting attention?

Kindly, you've got to stop this 'sending to the loo'.

Back off. If you stop making a thing about it, something will change.

Whatever is wrong with her and causing this is not going to respond to forcing her, punishments, or even bribes.

It's too deep seated.

@Enigma52
OH and I both equally baffled and frustrated. We've been good cop, bad cop and everything in between and are just out of ideas now

@DontforgetyourSPF
Thankfully never any marriage issues (yet!). There isn't any stress in the family that would be causing this and don't think she's showing any outward signs of puberty yet (she's only ten since Jan). She's the eldest of 3 (roughly 3 years begween them all) but she isn't starved of attention, is probably the one I spend the most one on one time with and has never shown signs of jealousy of her siblings before.

If I don't tell her to go to the toilet she won't ever go. She will poo then sometimes when she does use the loo which is one less poo she's doing in her pants. I don't think not encouraging to sit on the loo at all is going to help?

Yes it's very strange. Why only since Easter I wonder? Was she using the loo fine until then? Did it start in the Easter holidays?

@Enigma52
Maybe two weeks or so before Easter was the first incident and it gradually became more frequent and now seems like a habit she can't break. Luckily we didn't go away over the easter break but we have to sort this before summer holidays as no way we can travel with her like this

I'm sure you've heard the quote 'If you keep doing the same thing, don't expect a different result'

It's not working.

You are probably reinforcing whatever behaviour loop she is in.
It's a bit like trying to force feed a fussy eater. It doesn't work.
All you're doing is creating a battle which she is winning.

What you should do is behave like parents should with a temper tantrum- ignore it and then praise good behaviour.

It would be very interesting to see how she'd respond if all you did was say 'Ok, you know where you clean pants are, put the dirty ones in X [wherever you put them], go and shower..'

and leave her to it.

Yes, it's horrible, yes it smells, but only she can change. You can't force her to poo on demand and giving it and her all this time and attention is not working.

Take another tack.

And have a hard think over what changed at Easter. Who she saw, access to online material, boys, bullying, a period you know nothing about....got to be something.

@DontforgetyourSPF
She does take herself off and clean herself up (it's more common that I only know shes done it only because I find the pants than I actually witness her do it). She just doesn't take herself off to the loo to prevent it happening in the first place.

Ok, but you're still trying to manage it and impose sanctions like taking her to the loo, checking for poo in it etc.

I know it's hard but back off.

Don't talk about it, don't get angry, don't march her to loo.

@DontforgetyourSPF
So on the occasions where we can see that she's about to do it in her pants I should just let it happen rather than tell her to get herself on the toilet? And I should let her go god knows how long without ever using the toilet of her own accord?

@Katiemonkey15 what would happen
if you did nothing when DD pooed herself? Like literally said nothing/ did nothing and just let her deal with it?

@Enigma52
I'd just find the dirty pants. This happens regularly and I don't even comment a lot of the time. I find it really hard to sit back and watch her do it though or to see her resist even trying to help herself by just using the loo as a habit

A high fibre breakfast won’t do anything if she’s impacted high up. You have to do lots of movicol to clear her out. It’s something like 8 sachets. I’ve got to do it with my dd who is also ten next week. I’m keeping her off school to get it done.

Yes.

Because what you're doing now is not working.

There will be a change and consequences.

A 10 year doesn't need to be told to use the toilet when she feels the need to poo.

She's behaving like this FOR A REASON.

You've got to break the cycle and the only way is to change your behaviour.

You must have heard this...
'you can't change other people's behaviour, you can only change how you react to it.'

I agree with @DontforgetyourSPF in that this is now a behaviour loop, and no amount of nagging and cajoling is going to get DD to cheerfully sit on the toilet when told.

Also - going back to autism again - look up demand avoidance. Kids with demand avoidance dig their heels in at anything that’s perceived as a demand. Funny example - DH told DD that there were some chicken slices in the fridge that needed eating, so she could have those for lunch. DD said “well now you’ve said that I’m not having them”.

Sometimes it’s much harder to deal with than that.

Demand avoidant kids perceive toileting signals as a demand and struggle to respond to them.

It sounds like you have got into a power struggle on this - which is unhelpful and could be compounding the issue.

can you sit her down give her a hug and apologize that you have been getting frustrated about this issue. Tell her you are bringing her to the GP and that you know it is not her fault and that you are not angry at her but you will need to work as a team to resolve it. Try and take the power struggle out of it.

you could set a timer and see if she will take responsibility to sit on the toilet every two hours whether she feels she needs to go or not. But ultimately whatever medical or psychological issue is going on wlll need to be resolved.

If the OP's DD is constipated and faeces impacted, wouldn't she be in great pain by now, as this has been happening for a good six weeks or so now.

@Upinthenightagain
May I ask if your daughter has symptoms of constipation? Mine doesn't seem to and seems if anything to hold poo in a lot. GP did think she might constipated when we went though and we tried movical but it gave her very bad diarrhea which I took as a sign she wasn't constipated at all. I now think I should have seen the course through to rule constipation out anyway.

If DD is severely constipated, the first load of poo, will resemble diarrhoea, which is the overflow. Over time, the movicol helps to break down the impacted stuff higher up.