Negative, emotional 4 year old - normal?

[ChangeName2]

I’d like some advice about my 4 year old.

He was a difficult baby and toddler who cried and fussed at everything. Tiny bumps and knocks that other toddlers would just get up from would leave him howling on the floor. He didn’t really tantrum, but cried readily and easily.

He has gradually changed into a negative, glass half empty, whingey child with extremely low task perseverance. He whinges pretty much everything, even in normal conversation. If he can’t work a toy instantly he cries and tantrums and refuses to engage with it. He must moan ‘I’m too tired’ or ‘I’m too hungry’ 100 times a day to any slight request or inconvenience. The slightest perceived mishap (I touched his chest extremely lightly today while brushing crumbs off the table, for example) has him wailing (‘YOU HIT ME MUMMY IT WAS ON PURPOSE’). He is obsessed with winning, turns everything into a competition and can’t cope with ‘losing’.

He behaves at pre school but they have noticed his emotionality. I had to go and pick him up the other day as he dropped his sandwich on the floor and he was still having an emotional meltdown an hour later.

It’s clear he’s becoming more and more different from his friends. I’m not sure if this is still ‘normal’ and he’s just really lacking on emotional development, or if this is ‘abnormal’ and we should seek help.

I would say keep in touch with your preschool teachers and ask them to look out for potential neurodiversity. Having such big sensory issues is a big sign. It must be getting too much for him.
If you have concerns and you have a good GP or health visitor you could use them, but honestly it was the teacher at the school nursery that flagged our son, the GP said he was fine and the health visitor -haven't seen one for years!
If they get referred before school age then it's the local authority that will assess him, after that it's camhs so depending on the waiting list it can be an advantage to get in early.

My son is very similar in a lot of what you have posted although does seem to be ok at nursery on the whole. But there has been times the staff told me there's been scuffles with friends and it's always my son that is hurt etc.
He gets cold super fast (does yours?)
He has toileting issues too.

He can be positive about certain things however what you say about toys is him down to a T and also seeing a lot of things as a slight. Also the winning, being right, "I told you" "see, you forgot" etc etc.
We had the paddling pool out today and he was absolutely freezing even though I'd been using warm water. And our 2 yr old stripped off but naked and was absolutely lauding himself around on the pool whereas the 4yr old complained so much and asked to put normal dry clothes on!

I have always been skeptical about whether he is ND or is on the spectrum somewhere but for now there's nothing excessive in his behaviour so what can you do? I'm just Gona ride it out and see what happens.

@johnd2 thanks. We have the HV coming round next week as he’s so challenging. I feel she might laugh at us. His speech and comprehension is phenomenal and, at a surface level, he is engaging. Pre school do seem to get it. Unfortunately he’s not going there for reception which is a crying shame.

@Hungrycaterpillarsmummy I could have written most of that, including very easy going younger child. DC1 is always either too hot or too cold. Gets easily constipated as won’t poo in school. I wanted to keep OP short but we must hear ‘I’m right and you’re wrong’ or ‘I told you so’ 100 times a day as well. He wouldn’t even humour going in a paddling pool. I agree if there is neurodiversity there it’s subtle.

I think they are sensitive souls! I've noticed my son is very keen on art and crafts. Loves painting.
Hates dry textures like using chalk or pencils but loves pens and paint.
He's very clever and very funny too. Likes magic tricks and making experiments.

@ChangeName2 how old is the younger sibling/what is the age gap?

To me the competition/desire to be right sounds like big insecurity to me. He may well be feeling completely displaced by younger sibling and desperate to prove himself, which comes out in this attention seeking behaviour. Have you tried love bombing him? He doesn’t sound ND to me - more that he is craving something emotionally.

I took wondered this. But when ds2 was born and up to now, ds1 has always been very kind and caring towards ds2. I'm not sure it is competitiveness and also ds1 gets shedloads of love and attention. Moreso than ds2 I'd say

My DC1 became very whingey, negative and competitive when Dc2 was born. He was always absolutely lovely to Dc2 - the negative things were directed at me.

In his case it was absolutely because he felt displaced in my affections by his sibling - not immediately, but as she got older and more interesting. Love bombing really worked to turn things around. It’s worth a try.

How do you respond to the whining/whining/tantrums?

Thanks for your thoughts.

@Braindeer I have wondered about the effect of DC2. There is a 2y 8month gap. DC1 has always been highly strung but the behaviour did subtly change on the run up to his birth. Whether that was DC1 maturing or the effect of DC2 I can’t be sure. Love bombing is tricky. DC1 will not accept physical or verbal affection. His idea of love bombing would be to have me follow him round playing whatever he comes up with. Unfortunately his pot for attention is pretty bottomless. I regularly calve out time with him (far more than I do with DC2) and he’s still like he is even after hours of dedicated time, often he’s even worse.

@NuffSaidSam every single time he whinges we say ‘does that need to be whinged or can we ask/talk properly?’. I must say that phrase a million times per day. When we say that he will occasionally catch himself on, but more often than not he will resort to ‘I’m too tired/hungry’. If he does this we say we will continue the conversation when he’s in a better frame of mind.

If he gets cross with toys we will offer to help. If he refuses or still carries on getting cross with the toy it goes away which often causes ++ tears but it’s for safety in case he throws.

We come down hard on the unpleasant behaviour like accusing people of doing things on purpose or going on about being right and others wrong. We give him a chance to catch himself on (‘DC1, mummy was clearing the table and accidentally touched you, it wasn’t to hurt you’) but if he still carries on we totally disengage and walk away.

If pre school get it then ask them to refer him. Yes it's paperwork for them but they know him well and they know other children so they can carry a lot of weight. Going via the health visitor is another route but they only see him a short time so would have to get more information from the pre school anyway in order to decide whether to refer.
In our area the school can refer in connection with the senco at the school.
The good thing about a diagnosis is it's a short cut for support, so it will pay dividends later in school.
Good luck!

If you've been using the same techniques for some time and are not seeing any improvement it may be time to change approach. Not that the approach is wrong , just that it's obviously working for him.

Other approaches to try with the whining/whinging:

Sympathise - offer him a nap/lie down or a snack, agree with him that whatever he's moaning about is difficult and then ask him to find a solution/help him find a solution. At four, you can explain the concept of optimism/pessimism and how life will be nicer if he can find a solution or think positively. Perhaps when he's in a good mood ask him to brainstorm some things that make him feel happy and when he gets in to a funk get him to refer back to his list and pick something to cheer himself up with.

Ignore - do the 'I can't hear you/understand you when you use that voice'

Concentrate on the content of what he says and not the tone, completely ignore the whinging, but respond to what he says.

With the frustration, create some opportunities for him to be frustrated in a safe way. The problem with offering help or removing the toy is that he can never, ever overcome the frustration and triumph. I understand you need to remove stuff for safety, but find ways that he can struggle, but ultimately overcome obstacles. Also, make sure you always praise effort and not results (i.e. you tried so hard vs you did so well). Share your own frustrations, let him see you struggle and overcome things, ask for his help.

With the accusing people of doing things they haven't, I'd go straight to ignoring it. Don't give it the attention of 'coming down hard'. It's silly nonsense, treat it as such.

Agree with all that @NuffSaidSam has suggested. We found that acknowledging feelings rather than trying to brush them off really helped.

For whatever reason he sounds insecure - the fact you describe his need for attention as bottomless shows that he’s not getting what he needs (which might be different from what you think he needs/what you think should be “enough”).

It’s also normal for kids to be whingy when they are hungry or tired and it sounds like he’s actually quite mature if he can identify those things in himself.

To me he sounds like a sensitive boy who wants your attention and approval but doesn’t know how to get it in a positive way yet, and is feeling sad that his efforts are only backfiring.

My DC1 is very similar and I wish I had been less frustrated with him.

Thanks @NuffSaidSam thats amazing. We do acknowledge his feelings a lot. We really do try and offer empathy. It’s just really hard when it’s a constant rollercoaster and such unknown what you are going to be faced with each morning. I find the constant winging so triggering which I know I shouldn’t. I actually think ‘I’m tired’ and ‘in hungry’ aren’t true. He’ll say it straight after 11 hours or in bed or a massive meal. They’ve just become stock phrases for ‘something is up and I can’t articulate it’. We give him so much and it’s just soul destroying we can’t seem to help him. I know that’s a problem with us though, he can’t help being sensitive.

At four, you can explain the concept of optimism/pessimism and how life will be nicer if he can find a solution or think positively.

This is interesting. We do try this and he doesn’t seem to follow. He just gets very upset when we suggest trying to be a bit more positive. He is quite an immature 4 I’d say though, so hopefully it will come with time.

And I agree. We probably have been too quick to removed frustration. I’ll be the first to say that picking up a screaming child from the floor 100 times a day over seemingly nothing isn’t fun so we have tried to limit it. You are so right though that it won’t be helping him long term.

Our four year old is a bit like this. He is neurodiverse but it also seems to be a phase with his peers that is semi-permanent for us. School advised us to do a lot of naming feelings etc, which honestly sometimes feels a bit tedious but he does seem to like it. We draw him a worry bucket, which is filled up by the things he worries about and has a tap at the bottom that is the things that make him feel better like going outside or swimming. When his worry bucket is full he knows he can pick an 'emptier' to help.

He massively overused this for about 48 hours then seemed to feel honour had been satisfied and having a name for the concepts answered his concerns. But he does still use the language sometimes.

We’ve started the morning with instantaneous crying and wailing because he clearly needs a poo but ‘sitting on the toilet is too boring’. Won’t be reasoned with (you’ll feel better and your tummy will feel nice when the poo is gone) or forced. Then lurched straight into screaming and crying at me ‘MUMMY YOU ARE A BAD GUY’ because I didn’t think and went down the stairs first and ‘he wanted to win’. It’s just permanent egg shells. Advice appreciated as this really sums up the sort of situation we seem to lurch in and out to from the start of the day to the end of the day.

Hi OP - he sounds similar to my now nine year old son when he was that age. Have a look at Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) to see if it sounds in any way familiar. It’s a particular profile within the autism spectrum where the person finds any kind of pressure or demand very difficult and can be very resistant or highly sensitive in response.

Information on PDA can be found here.

@ChangeName2 have you tried injecting humour into the situation?

In that situation I’d probably have acknowledged the feeling (yes it is boring) and then exaggerated it until he laughed (imagine if you had to sit on this toilet doing massive poos for years and years and couldn’t even eat your breakfast etc etc), then tried to distract (what could be even worse than having to sit on this toilet).

With the stairs I’d have probably laughed it off and come back up and suggested he goes first or you do a different kind of race - like going down on your bum
or something - less dangerous than running!

It sounds a lot of work but overall it makes everything nicer.

Have you read the book How to talk so kids will listen?

With the pooing stuff I recommend the ERIC website.

We have a fair few books on pooping too.
There's also the NHS poo goes to pooland app.

Do you think he is scared to poo but describes it as boring as a way to mask it?

With the racing thing - if have just said I wanted to win too and made a joke out of it. Races would be boring if the same person one every time.

With the poo one, I wouldn't reason or force, I'd sympathise and try and find a solution e.g.

"It is boring waiting for a poo isn't it? What do you think we could do to make it more fun?"

If he can't come with anything make some silly suggestions.

"Why don't we pretend your poo is a rocket and do a countdown from 20?"

"Why don't you think about your favourite dinosaurs?"

"Shall I tell you a story?"

"Do you want to tell me a story?"

"We could sing a song?"

If you've tried a few suggestions and he's not biting, then go with "ok, let's try again in a few minutes".

But by reasoning or forcing him you're giving the poo withholding more and more negative energy. Go for a positive solution or ignore it.

With the race down the stairs I'd go with "Sorry DS I forgot you like to be first, you can have a turn to be first next time" and then leave it there. If he wants to continue the tantrum, ignore (but validate his feelings first).

Hey @ChangeName2 how is he now ? My four year old emotional too, not in the ways your boy is but more of it’s raining he says he done at what to get wet and wear his cool clothes but he doesn’t just shrug it off he cried , worries on nursery sports day and events. Cried when I go to work , nursery say it’s anxiety not anything else ….

Hi @S22

Start with the positives: Reading this back actually makes me ill he was so awful back then. I’m pleased to report age 5 is better! We really went hard on responsive, caring, understanding parenting. We kept the boundaries that were important firm, we didn’t become permissive and we definitely are still responsible for a lot of his tears…but we try to never get cross, shout or implement non natural consequences when he is crying his eyes out or melting down. It seems to have helped. He is still very emotionally reactive but he can be bought back down now and sometimes even says ‘that was silly of me!’. He will still sometimes get really upset that someone has purposefully hurt him but once again, he can usually be managed.

He found and fell in love with Lego recently as well which really regulates him and has been a game changer. He has also realised exercise is his friend (he has a lot of energy) especially if there is a reward at the end. He is still extremely competitive and a terrible loser (can be physically violent), which we and school are working on.

I suppose all of this is a form of low demand parenting, which is a bit of a buzz in the world of neurodiversity. Which leads me onto the fact he’s awaiting assessment for both autism and ADHD. It wasn’t just this behaviour but lots of other things combined which have led to this.

I also do think his brother being born blew his world apart for a long while, which has only just started to settle in the last couple of months really.

Hope that helps x

Interesting update thanks. So much of what you said rang true for us. Our child has been diagnosed with autism age 5 and we are to consider assessment for adhd in the future.