What on earth is nursery teacher talking about? ... ASD?

[Jean24601Valjean]

I'll try to make sense as I'm a bit all over the place. DH just got back from dropping our boys off at nursery and he said that the nursery teacher pulled him aside for a chat. He can't remember most of her exact words but he said she used the phrase "I don't like to use labels but..." and then went on to talk about some occasions when DS1 has been particularly stubborn and single-minded about things. This has been a bit of a persistent theme since joining this nursery (and for his entire life really but they are the first people to have brought it up formally - he has been to 2 nurseries previously due to house moves). We've had a few meetings about it and they have been trying certain techniques to make things easier, which they themselves have said improved things.

To give an example of the behaviour she is talking about, a couple of weeks ago DS1 wet himself but we'd forgotten to replenish his spare clothes supply so they only had other clothes to offer him. He flat out refused to put any of the other clothes on. This has happened once before and they called me to bring more in. However this time I couldn't answer the call as I was in a meeting and didn't have my phone with me. By the time I called back (maybe 45mins later) they said he'd agreed to wear the clothes they offered him. Other than this, the behaviour tends to be things relating to not wanting to transition from one activity to another.

I'm just really thrown by this "labels" talk! The only label we can think of that she might mean is ASD. I honestly don't know a lot about ASD but I thought that there was an important element around sociability and empathy. DS1 is really very sociable, takes a bit of time to warm up but loves playing with other kids and is very fun and playful with adults. He's also got a decent amount of empathy for a 3.5yo. E.g. I got upset about something once and then had to do his bedtime. He could tell I'd been crying (I'd stopped actually crying by that point) and said "Are you sad Mummy?" He's really sweet with his little brother as well, he'll give him a cuddle if he falls over and things like that.

So I guess I'm asking two things. Firstly is there any other "label" that the teacher could be talking about that we're not thinking of? Secondly does anyone who knows a bit more about it than me think based on my description that DS1 could be ASD, or is the nursery teacher being a bit overdramatic (she does have form for this, but not on such a serious topic) and DS1 is simply a stubborn and strong-willed toddler? We'll obviously have more of a conversation with her about it to clear things up (DH was caught a little off guard and was trying to get DSs into nursery at the same time) but just thought it would be helpful to have some input from the wise minds of Mumsnet to help us think it through.

Children who are stubborn are autistic and boys who like dolls are girls.

Welcome to 21st century Britain. 🤦‍♀️

P.S. I have autism. Not wanting to give up one activity to start another or refusing to wear stranger clothes really aren’t the reasons any child should be diagnosed with it. The teacher might simply have an issue with the fact that your son does not conform as easily as other children.

The defining trait of my DS when he was very young was stubbornness. Would never wear a coat , point blank refused food he didn’t like at nursery & school, difficult transition between activities, would refuse to wear clothes that felt “wrong”.

he seemed to grow out of this a bit as he got older but when he started university he had a kind of mental crash that has resulted in an ADHD diagnosis.

It is impossible to tell from what you have said if your child has any issues but if they do it is best that they are identified early.

I would say just keep an open mind, if the behaviours seem out of the norm it may be worth seeking some more professional advice, or it could just be a phase and an overly dramatic nursery teacher.

Having worked with children with additional needs of varying nature's I would suggest to the teacher that if she feels he may need an assessment then she put this in motion. If he is ASD then the sooner he gets appropriate support in place the easier school will be. The fact he's still wetting himself at 3.5 coupled with his "toddler" behaviour may point to some developmental delay.

My DS is autistic and extremely empathetic and kind. I'd echo what a PP has said that one of the first things that stood out about DS was his stubbornness. Even as a tiny child he couldn't be bribed with treats. He met every other milestone on target. I'd keep an open mind and listen to what she has to say. No she isn't a psychologist and no she isn't qualified to diagnose a child but in her job she works with lots of different children from all sorts of backgrounds so in my own experience childcare workers do have a good inkling for this kind of stuff. And I'll hold up my hand and admit to being high offended and very put out when DS's preschool teacher broached the subject with me.

a lack of empathy is not a requirement for an ASD label. It’s a negative and outdated stereotype.

Difficulty navigating NT social situations, yes, but plenty of ASD people are social. We are often social in a way that NT people have trouble understanding. That isn’t our fault. NT are distinctly unskilled at communicating in multiple ways.

ASD children will often learn to mask in public in order to get along with the majority. It is tiring and tends to induce anxiety. Getting a label can help a child understand how to better balance self expression and masking.

“Are you sad mummy” is not an example of empathy. It’s clarifying how he thinks you might be feeling based on what he’s evidenced. If anything having to clarify could be evidence of difficulties identifying emotions of others and is actually showing a lack of empathy.

Nurseries and schools don’t raise concerns out of nowhere. A fixed mindset, difficulties with transition, slow to warm up to people could all be examples.

If it’s his third nursery I’d put it down to them trying to have some kind of control over their life. It is hard at that age and it might be a case of just letting them have their way a bit and trying to keep them in the same nursery (if possible) so they feel secure and less likely that their whole world is going to change and they have no control over it.

Talk to them about it gently to see if they want to explain how they felt etc. Give them lots of cuddles at the same time so they know they’re not in trouble etc.

In any case speak to the teacher to clarify the comment and look out for signs just in case they will need any extra support.

God mine was the most stubborn child in the world! And really struggled with transitions when he was little. I remember him holding onto the doors of the school while I was trying to get him in for a visit. I had to carry him in the end. Hairdressers was a nightmare too. He needed a warning before the end of any activity before moving on to the next. He wasn't obviously autistic though until approaching secondary school age as most things could be put down to his age, then the gulf widened between him and his peers and it became clearer. He was diagnosed at 11, no teacher had picked anything up before then.

I would listen to the nursery teacher, they probably have a lot of experience of what is within the 'normal' range for kids. They're not qualified to diagnose obviously but IME they don't tend to throw things out like this willy nilly.

This. The fact that your DS's behaviour is giving the nursery cause for concern needs to be taken seriously. Allow someone who knows what they're talking about to discuss their thoughts about your son and do not start down the route of he can't be X because he's always so Y. Even such young children have learned to 'fit in' and do what society expects in a given situation. It's called masking and we all do it to a certain extent.

I do have an adult AS child, diagnosed at 4.5, and something that really made my blood boil when the diagnosis process was going on was Mil testing the child because she couldn't possibly believe that they were AS. Other relatives got in on the act and I was constantly told that they were not really autistic because of ......... even once I received the official diagnosis. It seems that any issues the child had were caused by my inadequate mothering - but that is my story, not yours.

Autism can be very difficult to diagnose in such a young child, even when any parent of an Autistic child can spot it in 5 minutes, and requires hours of observation in a variety of settings. If there is a concern, you will be doing your child a great service by setting wheels in motion now. The sooner helpful therapies and interventions begin, the better the prospects for a satisfactory time in school and good qualifications at the end. Please do not bury your head's in the sand.

It's likely the teacher is saying that she can't suggest a diagnosis, but she will have a good idea of what is typical behaviour for young children and something about the difficulties your son is having is not typical.

I have recently had this with my 3 year old daughter’s nursery, she has only been there 2 months and her teacher which is also SENCo there has told me to contact the gp for a community paediatrician referral, she said she has been watching her and yes some things are age related but there is far to many that isn’t and it’s best to get the ball rolling with being seen to know for sure, my daughters main things are sensory reactions to being touched ( which make a lot of things hard to do with her ) meltdowns x 6 a day ( these last about 30mins at a time, high pitched screaming, throwing, hitting, kicking ) no sense of danger, very over sociable with strangers, finds anything that spins and repeatedly spins them and herself, the list goes on, she’s always been like this though so I’m not surprised by her teachers words. Her brother has adhd so she may have that but in my words there similar but there’s something more with her