ERF car seats - Tiny Seats - no clue where to begin!

[Nosecat]

Hello,

Does anyone understand ERF car seats and the various tests? How safe is the Tiny Seats 2? I need a seat for travelling for my three year old and this seems to be the only specifically travel option for this age. I can't find any safety reports (Swedish plus or ADAC, although to be honest I don't quite understand what these mean either...). I read somewhere that you shouldn't go for a foldable seat for safety but this is foldable and ERF FB groups support it? Very confused and any help is so welcome!

thanks!

They are minimally tested to the R149 standard which is the minimum safety standard required to be legally used. They are not recommended seats as far as I am aware. I did lots of research on ERF seats when my son was born after a nasty car accident (thankfully I knew to rearface so he was unscathed but it scared the life out of me) I now have an ERF swedish plus tested seat. The Axkid which is one of the safest ERF seats you can buy. There is a group on Facebook called car seat safety UK and they are professionals who are trained and they can advise you in case I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure tiny seats are not recommended brand and are not tested to high standards like the swedish plus test. The swedish plus test is the safest car seat safety test in the WORLD. They test vigoursly and at higher speeds so a swedish plus test seat is the safest option. any other seat tests such as ADAC and the others are just the legal minimum which only test at slow speeds thus not being as safe.

Also just to add you say they seem to be the only suitable seat for your 3yo, seats go on weight and height, not age. You can rear face and buy ERF seats for upto 36kg and 125 cm. Th seat I have will last my son until he is at least 5 and he is high centiles.

I think the "don't use foldable seats" is a generalisation based mainly on forward facing seats. The fact is that rear facing, assuming the seat passes any kind of regulatory crash test, offers better protection than even the best forward facing seat. So presumably, even a foldable rear facing seat is safer than a single-piece forward facing seat. The safety isn't coming from the features of the seat itself, it's coming from the fact it's rear facing (if that makes sense).

In terms of independent crash tests, this one hasn't been through any so can't say how it would perform in those yet. I did hear talk about plus testing but it seems to have all magically vanished from their website - possibly they could not get it to pass that. Carseat.se reckons it's done an "unofficial ADAC test" and did well but I honestly don't know what that means - take with a pinch of salt TBH.

I would not say it's "minimally tested" though - this is a bit of a meaningless phrase for a start, but also it suggests that the company is aiming for the bare minimum to pass the test, and I do not get this impression with this company. As I said - not seen a crash test or any published numbers, and a portable seat is likely to have to make some compromises in comparison to a fixed/one-piece seat - but there are some things which do tell you this company is looking at safety:

The seat has a support leg which is positive. Support legs make a big difference to rear facing crash safety. The rear facing up to 125cm is impressive as is the weight limit of 23kg - these are similar to Axkid One2 and Joie i-Prodigi. Axkid One2 is probably one of the safest seats in the world due to the combination of long rear facing/Swedish plus test, and ease of use.

The main sticking point with this one really is the price. And honestly it's not that light - it's about 10kg - it is less bulky though than the more basic/seatbelt fitted "standard" car seats.

In terms of travel/foldable seats, you have three rear facing options which would fit an average 3yo - Tinyseats original, Tinyseats 2 and Nachfolger Hy5.

Depending on the size of your 3yo, you might be able to use Tinyseats original or Nachfolger, but they won't be suitable for as long as the Tinyseats 2.

You could also look at forward facing seats - they are less protective than rear facing but the difference is not as huge at 3. However, you do get into the conundrum that the portable/foldable ones aren't going to be as robust as a standard/fixed one piece shell, and when you're forward facing, the quality/features of the seat matter a lot more. I also think that with these seats (Urban Kanga/Maxi Cosi Nomad) you are prone to getting forward anchorage because the belt path is extremely shallow.

You could look at some of the travel high back boosters, like Chicco Fold and Go, as these are advised minimum age 3. However, these just use a seatbelt, no internal straps and you might not be comfortable with this at age 3. Also, some 3yos will not meet the minimum weight and height requirements (15kg/100cm) and there is some good evidence from the US that 15kg is too low as a minimum for a HBB seat, and 18kg is much better in terms of injury reduction. It's not known whether the improvement is due to the child's physical size or the fact that 18kg children tend to be 4+ whereas 15kg is a more common weight at age 3. Most companies are now recommending age 3.5 or 4 or even 4.5 as minimum ages for their high backed boosters and experts back up this recommendation.

All really depends on what you're after - what is the most important thing? Do you NEED it to be a compact seat? A lightweight seat? Universal fit? Is it important for you that it's rear facing? Is your 3yo big or small or average sized? Do you need to use it once or do you want to be able to keep using it in future? Do you want the highest possible safety rating and everything else doesn't matter? Or just for it to be safe enough to be legally approved and offer some protection? Is this a better than nothing scenario, or are you looking to improve on something (e.g. a lower-quality hired seat)?

@BertieBotts This is perhaps the most fulsome response I could have ever hoped for!

He is higher centiles, about 17kg and almost 100cm so the Nachfolger looked great but I don't think we would get a great deal of time out of it.

We have had one too many circumstances now on holiday where taxi companies have provided pretty shabby seats which I've felt uncomfortable with but had to use. We are going away next month and hiring a car, and the rental company has quoted about £250 for rental of a forward facing for the holiday so I think it makes sense from every angle to buy one.

Cost isn't so much of a concern, but rear facing is. Our home seat is a Maxi Cosi Mica (bought before I knew about Swedish plus testing but seems to have worked well for us) and I don't intend to use it forward facing. Trouble is, we have little to no storage space at home (but could make it work so isn't a deal breaker) and I would like some longevity in it (that could mean being used by a hopefully potential sibling later down the line). We intend to replace the Mica with something like an Axkid in the future, but for travel would like a separate one. That's another question, what's the best way of protecting the seat when putting it into the hold? A specific car seat bag or the original box?

Thank you SO much.

@BertieBotts one thing I did see someone say about the Tiny Seats 2 was that there looked to be no side protection. Do you agree with that? Thanks again!!

@BertieBotts Oh sorry, and that it's very narrow, perhaps too narrow?

Well the TinySeats 2 can fold up to cabin luggage size (I'd double check this of course) which is another pro of it in terms that it can be taken into the cabin and doesn't have to be packed as hold luggage.

I have heard of some people intending to get it as their main seat actually - no idea if it's practical/robust enough for this in practice. You could send a message to carseat.se, either through their website or social media - I've found them really helpful in the past. They seem to have a lot of experience with it.

It would be more bulky, but have you thought about simply getting an Axkid One2? The weight is the same as the TinySeats but it doesn't fold. It's meant to be really easy to fit, so could in theory be a good option both for home and travel if you flew it in the box, then you don't need to store a second seat. People don't normally suggest it as a travel seat because it's expensive, but it's not that far off the TinySeats 2 price.

Original box is best if you do put it into the hold, as a box will protect best from all kinds of impact. The bags really just keep them clean - they don't have any protection in. You end up having to pad it out with bubble wrap or whatever. Any big box will do but if you use the original, then you know it will fit.

Or you could look at Joie Everystage R129/Graco Slimfit R129 (same seat as far as I can tell) - this is rear facing up to 105cm and 21kg so gives you a bit of extra time. It's not as long lasting as a 125cm limit seat though.

It's approved to R129, so it must have some side protection though I admit I don't really know how robust that test is.

I haven't seen it in person so couldn't say if it's narrow.

Actually I was just looking for a UK stockist and you might struggle to get it in time for your trip anyway - for example this one https://www.dmbcarseats.co.uk/product-page/tinyseats-two

I know this is after the fact now but in case anyone else is reading later on like me, I just wanted to add that as I understand it, no seat that can face forwards can pass the Swedish plus test anyway so that wouldn't necessarily be something that this seat has "failed" as such (if used rear facing). Of course, it might "fail" but there's no actual way of knowing. I read that they might be trying to make one that's not convertible so it can actually pass the Swedish test.

I thought that I had read that too, but now that I look for it, I can't find any reference to it so I don't know if that has been abandoned as a goal. To me, it makes no sense to even have this seat be usable as a high backed booster, it just invites a high chance of people using it as a FF harnessed seat, which would be a really bad idea due to the fact the support leg is folded away in FF mode. There are already loads of foldable HBBs on the market and portable backless boosters which are really fine after 125cm, particularly for travel use. And any kind of conversion in a seat leads to compromises in both modes. It just doesn't seem justified to me here.

The Swedish plus test criteria were revised and clarified recently, and they have now explicitly said that only rear facing seats are allowed to be put through the test, and that a seat must pass without the use of airbags. I am a little suspicious that this has been said after the Cybex Anoris seat has come out, it feels very much to me to be a business/turf war thing going on. I can understand that to an extent, because I see Cybex doing some very shady marketing and not playing fair in this area. But I do feel like there is a certain sector of the car seat world which is ideologically set on the idea of rear facing as the one and only answer to car safety, and I find this frustrating, because to me I feel like - if, theoretically, there COULD be a forward facing seat which is even safer than rear facing, or even something totally new that hasn't been tried before, why not? Perhaps there is a good reason for this new criteria, but to me it just seems like it's been written specifically to exclude the Cybex seat.

When impact shield seats were having their revival in Europe in around 2013 or so, one of those (a Kiddy one, I think) was put through a Plus test condition crash test and this did not pass, although they were hoping that it would.

@BertieBotts @Sunnydays60 I actually contacted both CarSeats.se (thanks for the recommendation!) and Tiny Seats themselves. At least as of last month, they were still intending to bring out a plus tested version, but not until later in the year.

In any event, I've ordered the Tiny Seats 2 (and absolutely, @BertieBotts, I have no intention of using it in HBB mode). Waiting for it to arrive so fingers crossed it's suitable!

Oh cool, interesting to hear about the plus test info! Thanks for sharing :)

@Nosecat has yours arrived yet? I have recently purchased one and I’m really struggling with how stiff the harness is to tighten and loosen. It’s really really stiff.

@LoftyDeer silly question, but are you pressing the button at the same time as releasing the straps? I'm finding the straps ok to loosen but I just can't tighten them quite enough. Have you discovered a knack to it by chance?

@Nosecat Yes I was pressing the button to release the harness as normal but it was still incredibly stiff. Make sure the harness in line or just below the shoulders and that should allow you to get it tight enough with some effort. I found the harness to be pretty stiff in general but it was terrible the lower down the headrest setting when using for a younger child. Really had to fight with it to loosen and tighten and felt like the harness was constantly snagging so returned the seat. I wouldnt be surprised if over time the pull strap starts to fray as it just felt like it kept getting caught. It’s a great concept and a solid seat and I really wanted it to work for us but it was just too difficult to use especially as we wanted to use it for childminder and grandparents

@LoftyDeer thats helpful, thank you! Where did you buy it from that you can return after trying it? That'll be helpful to know for future car seat purchases!

@Nosecat I didn’t use the seat, just sat my children in it and found it to be a nightmare with the harness. If you order online then you have 14 days to return due to distance selling regs as long as it’s still in unused original condition, tags intact, original packaging. If I had know how stiff the harness was going to be I wouldn’t have ordered.

@Nosecat just wondered how you got on with this seat please?
Considering purchasing for our youngest (recently turned 2) for a travel seat. I'd love any feedback you have on it please. Thanks.

I like the fact you are doing your research, you could try getting more than one opinion on the foldable seat, there are risks in life regardless of what we choose to do. I am confident you will make the right choices for your child.