Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Parenting

For free parenting resources please check out the Early Years Alliance's Family Corner.

Managing boys

40 replies

staybyyou · 06/03/2024 12:31

I have two boys 6&4 who are, and always have been, energetic. They are generally polite, happy, fun kids. However recently they are being extremely hard to work, and I’m at a loss to manage them. They want to playfight, wrestle, run and shout, what feels like, most of the time. This is ok sometimes (at the park or if they are just messing about at home) but so often it escalates into someone getting hurt, or them jumping about shouting and screaming unable to calm down and be sensible. I feel like I dread being at home with them and I’m getting stressed with them which just makes it worse and I hate the cycle I’m in. They do clubs, sports, I take them out on their bikes and scooters, they have lots of toys (which they can and do play with nicely together sometimes), and we go out a lot! I’ve tried sticker charts for good kind behaviour and for listening first time, they then get a treat. But they are now very centred on the treat and what they may get, and grumpy if it’s not what they want. I’ve tried ignoring the behaviour, as everyone keeps telling me ‘that’s what brothers are like’, but it’s impossible to do that when out at the shops or getting ready to go to school. One of their childcarers has said that one is not being very respectful as they are jumping and running about and not listening, I’m mortified and know I need to fix this sooner rather than later so any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. Please be kind as I’m feeling low about it.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
BertieBotts · 06/03/2024 16:08

As you say they are only like this together, is either one of them also like this with other children?

Because if it's only happening together, then it might be that, like beerthief says, they are learning about how far they can take physicality and this is being addressed between other children, so they are learning what is generally socially acceptable, but at home they have this sense that "it's my brother so it's fine".

In this case it is probably a good idea to have clearer lines about what is and isn't acceptable, rather than ignoring (which might mean sanctions for certain behaviour or it might be specifically targeting a replacement behaviour to encourage or both).

If it happens more generally, it might be that one is setting the other one off and this is escalating frequently. This is a dynamic I notice between my younger DC sometimes - basically one (usually the 5yo) gets an idea in his head that the other (2.5) is going to do something he doesn't like (for example, break his lego model).

That might be a rational fear because the 2.5yo is obviously more clumsy than a 5yo in his movements, and also they tend to be attracted to the interesting-looking model the older has built. The problem is that the 5yo will deal with it in an inappropriate way e.g. try to get in first by thumping the 2yo, or try to warn the 2yo off by shouting at him to go away, or block the 2yo completely so he can't access any lego at all.

This obviously then provokes an angry counter-reaction from the 2yo. From his perspective, he's just gone to play with a toy totally innocently and suddenly been shouted at, blocked, or even hit. So he will then react by shouting/hitting back, or doing something to deliberately annoy the 5yo like grab the model he was playing with and throw it, etc.

To the adult looking in, both children are at fault because they are behaving inappropriately. Which is correct. But if you then go to punish them for it what you often get is that the 5yo feels aggrieved because "it wasn't MY fault, I was just trying to get him off my lego!" and the 2yo feels aggrieved because "he hit me first!" They probably WILL figure out alternative methods of conflict management when they get fed up of whatever sanction they end up with for this, assuming no issues in this area etc. But it's a fairly long and headache inducing process to get there, and you might also get breakthrough incidents where one of them is still harbouring resentment towards the other for some previous slight that they retaliated and got told off for, so they just do something anyway almost to even up the score.

(OK, a 2yo probably isn't having that sophisticated of an inner monologue - but a 4yo and 6yo absolutely do).

So one other approach is more laborious in the short term, but gets closer to the root - basically you can go in when you notice any slight hint of conflict, raised voices etc and be a sort of mediator, translating the 5yo's worries to the 2yo and seeing if you can get them to use problem solving skills to find a solution between the two of them. I can't remember what book I read it in but I like the one where you summarise each one's concerns and then say "I wonder if there's a way..." e.g.

"It looks like DS2 wants to keep his model safe, and DS3 also wants to play with Lego. I wonder if there's a way that DS2's model can be safe and DS3 can play with lego too?"

They will normally IME start suggesting solutions when you phrase it like this, even as young as 3 or so. But even if they don't, or you think their solutions aren't very practical, you can then start adding ideas as well. Usually there's a totally simple solution just around them each having their own box/space etc. But the more you do this, you'll start to hear them do it between themselves too, which is really lovely, and also helps them practice conflict resolution skills.

If it does happen to be that one child is typically instigating and it commonly seems to be in pre-emptive defense against something the other one might not have even had a thought of doing, then it might be that it's because the instigator child isn't very good at reading non-verbal communication, and it can actually help a huge amount to take the opportunity as often as you can to pre-emptively sit with them when they play with (any) other child, and start pointing things out to the child who is liable to get anxious about other children's possible behaviour, reassuring them you'll act as a shield to ensure the other child doesn't do the thing, but also sort of coaching them in how to communicate to the other child, and to watch what they are actually doing (rather than jumping to what they might do).

Givemepickles · 06/03/2024 16:29

I'm about to have my second boy so don't have any tips yet - following this with interest! But wanted to recommend the book Raising Boys. It's on Spotify etc as an audio book too. You've probably read it already but just in case. It sounds like you're doing all the right things but I think it may reassure you this is how many boys are, particularly when they have a testosterone surge around 4 years old (and again at 12 apparently). Hope it helps and sending solidarity!

MissyB1 · 06/03/2024 16:37

Givemepickles · 06/03/2024 16:29

I'm about to have my second boy so don't have any tips yet - following this with interest! But wanted to recommend the book Raising Boys. It's on Spotify etc as an audio book too. You've probably read it already but just in case. It sounds like you're doing all the right things but I think it may reassure you this is how many boys are, particularly when they have a testosterone surge around 4 years old (and again at 12 apparently). Hope it helps and sending solidarity!

There’s no testosterone surge at age 4 that was debunked a long time ago. All 12 year olds will be having hormonal changes as part of puberty - not just boys. Raising Boys plays into gender stereotypes I threw it in the bin!

OP all siblings will fight and mess about if you allow it. Put tighter boundaries in place and give consequences, praise good behaviour and cooperation. You don’t need to feel sad about that or think it’s just you, it’s normal family life.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Givemepickles · 06/03/2024 16:44

You really can't post anything on a mumsnet thread that you personally found useful without someone immediately shouting it down. If you don't like it then make your own suggestions but there's no reason to be argumentative @MissyB1 it just ruins mumsnet and any sense of coming together to help each other. The book is about boys so funnily enough it focuses on boys and their hormones. Girls have totally different hormonal cycles, obviously as we have periods. There are books about girls too and books that say boys and girls are all the same. You can choose what you want. I found Raising Boys insightful and enjoyed it very much.

staybyyou · 06/03/2024 16:48

That's all very relevant @BertieBotts and I totally see that kind of interaction all the time. I also find it hard not to blame the oldest one. I will take that all on board.

But no, they are not really like it with other children, only if they see others playing in a similar fashion will they be desperate to join in. They gravitate to that type of play 100%. They are not the instigators really though, more 'watch and wait', and in games with others they are well aware of boundaries. For example they would hit each other or pull each other over but never another child, they are much gentler and keen to make friends.

OP posts:
fedupandstuck · 06/03/2024 16:52

@Givemepickles it's important to correct misinformation though. That claim about a testosterone surge just isn't true. It can lead to people excusing poor behaviour from boys around the age of 4, because they apparently can't help it because of their "testosterone".

RubyGemStone · 06/03/2024 17:10

Have 4 boys, all much older than yours, now into late teens/early adulthood.

Yes, like dogs, very loud and chaotic.

Personally not a fan of reward charts maybe because there were too many of them but I just felt they all did better with quick consequences.

Never make a threat you won't follow through with. I would take them home after a warning if acting up out and about.

Do you have a garden? I honestly used to send mine to run 50 lengths of the garden or up and down the stairs, even star jumps. They get too hyped up and need to burn it off.

Separating them, its very un-mn but I would have them sit in a corner or face the wall for a few minutes. I really couldn't get into some debate about removal of the playstation or whatever. Worst case scenario being sent to bed straight after tea.

What did you do about him being disrespectful?

You do need to get control and establish yourself as some sort of authority. Doesn't mean being the dragon lady but when you say enough it needs to carry weight. Otherwise the tween years will be hell (in contrast, much better as teens than girls I found)

BertieBotts · 06/03/2024 17:12

If you like the problem solving stuff you might like the book Siblings Without Rivalry - I have defo read this tip in more than one place, but it's definitely in there and there is some other really good stuff in that book about establishing a good relationship between siblings.

Totally natural to have that instinct to "blame" the bigger one (it's not really blaming as such, but seeing them as starting it unprovoked, or expecting them to have more awareness, decorum etc compared to the younger!) but I have found it helpful personally to see it reversed into the child's perspective. I was the older sibling, and get on well with my sister in general, but I do remember how unfair it felt to be told "You should know better, you're the eldest and need to set a good example!" all the time. And I just noticed this on Peppa Pig a minute ago (of all places) - Peppa and George both were being told to share a toy and they said "Let George have a go first, because he's the youngest" - and I think this comes across as unfair to children.

So, maybe it doesn't make any difference (they do still fight obviously!) but I try to avoid those shortcut explanations - "because you're the eldest/he's the youngest" don't make sense to children and feel unfair. An adult can fill in the blank, but a child can't. If I do think that the younger one needs more leeway or to have something first, then I try to explain it in a way they will understand - like saying "DS3 is still learning to wait, and he will only have a short turn, so let's let him go first" or "I know DS3 did that, but he's only little and doesn't know. You DO know that spitting is wrong, so don't show him please."

staybyyou · 06/03/2024 17:43

I'm glad many of you suggest similar consequences to what we are using, immediate separation or going to bed. I too find the removal of screens pointless (that seems to be what most people suggest and may work when they are older and more interested). They don't really care about removal of toys as they just find another to fashion as a gun/sword/wand/lightsaber.

I do need to be firmer with what I will and won't tolerate and he quick with consequences. I'm trying sooo hard to pick my battles as I sometimes get hung up on the wrong things, especially if it's been a long day on my own with them. Maybe I need to write a list of what I really want to tackle.

With regards to being disrespectful @RubyGemStone
I explained what she had said (it was a group of children, boys funnily enough, not just him) and said that this was a warning. I'm not happy hearing that and I don't expect to hear it again. But I'm not sure where to go after this if it does continue. I'm not there to see what's actually happening and nothing has actually 'happened' so I can't really punish for anything specific. They are just being chaotic.

OP posts:
staybyyou · 06/03/2024 17:54

A lot of people say 'oh you need to put tighter boundaries in place and have strict consequences' but I'm kind of saying here that this is the part I'm struggling with @MissyB1

I know siblings fight, its just getting out of hand and feels like it's all of the time which I don't actually feel is 'normal', or not a normal I want in our family.

OP posts:
RubyGemStone · 06/03/2024 18:16

Sounds like you do just need to be firmer. Being told my child was disrespectful at school would have sent me nuclear. It is not acceptable, and I want to be a united front with teachers/childcare providers.

For us, that would have been a very serious telling off, home for dinner and straight to bed. Not sure if Dad is around but my DH would have then followed up and reinforced my point of view. Next day letter/picture of apology and a conversation about listening to adult in charge.

I think you may need to come down hard for a few weeks to establish control. Then you can ease up. Say NO FIGHTING and start separating them and sending out every time they fight for a bit, should get boring to them eventually.

BertieBotts · 06/03/2024 19:32

So apparently it doesn't actually matter what the consequence is, as long as it's not something harmful (e.g. smacking/emotional/fear-based etc) - something quick and token seems to be key. Time out/separation, or loss of a privilege or loss of points for example is the most common "generic" thing suggested. I did actually sometimes used to assign DS1 extra jobs to do which one version of me thinks is absolutely draconian but it seemed to achieve what I wanted it to at the time and not traumatise him (he did them willingly, I never had to force him). So maybe that's fine too.

Some people talk about logical/related consequences being better but as far as I can tell there is no research backing this up. It might make sense sometimes e.g. if the child has wasted time they lose some time later, if child has caused some inconvenience e.g. a mess then they have to bear the consequences e.g. cleaning the mess. But I wouldn't get so deeply into the logical/related consequence that you're bending over backwards trying to find some bizarre punishment to fit the crime or putting so much brainpower into it when a generic, immediately effective thing would do exactly the same job.

It probably would help to make a list of what you want to tackle, just because IME that makes it a bit easier to be consistent because you can sort of have a formula in your head which makes it a bit more automatic. I also find it makes it much easier to remember the positive side, which is apparently the most effective bit anyway. We feel like the consequences are the effective part but according to research it's the training/practice/encouragement/successful experience of the replacement behaviour that you want which makes the difference. Consequences are really just there partly to give a parent something to do instead of blowing your top and absolutely ranting at the child (or worse getting physical/threatening some terrible punishment) and partly as a backstop to interrupt the cycle and remind them of what you disapprove of.

And with the problem solving stuff if you get to it at source, then in theory you don't need the consequences anyway. Of course in reality, you'll never be 100% at the preventative or intervening before things happen. So you might want to have the consequences as a backup solution, as long as you don't find they make things worse.

Beansandneedles · 06/03/2024 19:41

staybyyou · 06/03/2024 15:29

@Beansandneedles this is great, the kind of parent I aspire to be!! My kids are just like that too.

Same!! Mine are still smaller ATM but it's gonna happen eventually

Yourethebeerthief · 06/03/2024 20:45

staybyyou · 06/03/2024 13:24

@Yourethebeerthief yes 100%

They do Martial arts already, I'm looking at cricket too. They do another club on a Saturday. It's expensive though. When I don't need to be cooking/cleaning/shopping we are outside.

Can I ask what rules/sanctions you would suggest. They don't really watch screens except when genuinely knackered after/around tea time. They would happily put them down though to 'play'.

Can't really answer that as it's specific to each child. I would say don't overthink it. Just pick a consequence that matters to them and stick with it. Also work on being firm with them- they need to know 100% that you don't take any nonsense from them.

It sounds like one consequence certainly needs to be to separate them if play fighting descends into tears. I would set the rule that they can play flight as long as no one ends up crying/genuinely hurt/something in the house is broken because of their roughhousing.

If they seem to be in that mood and want to batter lumps out of each other as boys tend to do, you could send them to the garden to do it and/or set a timer. Say "look I couldn't care less if you want to run around and play sword fights/ wrestle/ whatever, but you've got 40 minutes to do it. I'm setting a timer and if there are tears the timer stops for today and you get 5 minutes docked off next time"

If you time it it keeps it contained. In exactly the same way a child who wanted to game all day or watch tv all day should be given allotted times, I don't see why it shouldn't apply with roughhousing. It should also stop it going on so long that it descends into chaos. You know what it's like with rough play; the longer it goes on the more likely it is to end badly, and they're too young to know when to quit while they're ahead.

Timer ends, huge praise for not killing each other, swiftly move on to another activity. Don't just let them float about not knowing what to do with themselves.

I would also (and you may not be inclined this way, in which case hopefully there dad is) engage in some rough play sometimes with them yourself. In our family I'm the one who plays rough with my son. My husband just isn't the type. I am an only child and my dad played rough with me constantly, it was great fun. If you leave them to do it all themselves they can't regulate and it ends in tears (timer will help plus threat of consequences) but an adult play fighting helps to teach them the boundaries of their physicality as the adult is more skilled at it.

Giving them ways to see that you're not against play fighting will help. You're being firm, but fair and reasonable. They need to know that lots of things in life are fine, as long as you toe the line and have respect.

Ididntmeantoyou · 07/03/2024 13:23

Yourethebeerthief · 06/03/2024 20:45

Can't really answer that as it's specific to each child. I would say don't overthink it. Just pick a consequence that matters to them and stick with it. Also work on being firm with them- they need to know 100% that you don't take any nonsense from them.

It sounds like one consequence certainly needs to be to separate them if play fighting descends into tears. I would set the rule that they can play flight as long as no one ends up crying/genuinely hurt/something in the house is broken because of their roughhousing.

If they seem to be in that mood and want to batter lumps out of each other as boys tend to do, you could send them to the garden to do it and/or set a timer. Say "look I couldn't care less if you want to run around and play sword fights/ wrestle/ whatever, but you've got 40 minutes to do it. I'm setting a timer and if there are tears the timer stops for today and you get 5 minutes docked off next time"

If you time it it keeps it contained. In exactly the same way a child who wanted to game all day or watch tv all day should be given allotted times, I don't see why it shouldn't apply with roughhousing. It should also stop it going on so long that it descends into chaos. You know what it's like with rough play; the longer it goes on the more likely it is to end badly, and they're too young to know when to quit while they're ahead.

Timer ends, huge praise for not killing each other, swiftly move on to another activity. Don't just let them float about not knowing what to do with themselves.

I would also (and you may not be inclined this way, in which case hopefully there dad is) engage in some rough play sometimes with them yourself. In our family I'm the one who plays rough with my son. My husband just isn't the type. I am an only child and my dad played rough with me constantly, it was great fun. If you leave them to do it all themselves they can't regulate and it ends in tears (timer will help plus threat of consequences) but an adult play fighting helps to teach them the boundaries of their physicality as the adult is more skilled at it.

Giving them ways to see that you're not against play fighting will help. You're being firm, but fair and reasonable. They need to know that lots of things in life are fine, as long as you toe the line and have respect.

I have nearly 8yo and a 5yo boy and agree with all of this. Play fighting is a kind of training and a positive thing (obviously not when they hurt each other), which they seem to need daily. I also set a timer so that things don’t get out too of hand and separate them, do time out or ban screen time if they hurt each other, depending on what has happened. We have clear rules like no hitting in the tummy or the face. Sometimes I join in, or DH does. This they like best of all.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page