Natural consequences when toddler doesn't care?

[Cindy1802]

Looking for some advice from mamas who have walked this path. My LB has just turned 3, and is very bright, interactive, his speech is amazing, and has endless energy - he will literally run up and down the hallway and round the kitchen table in laps doing his "gym" or "parkrun". He is also very physical - he pretends he is a rugby player or gladiator and scrum us out of nowhere. He is an amazing little boy, great company and a lot of fun, but has always been a bit of a handful!

Anyway back to the real question. He's got to the age where we discipline and boundaries is really needing to come into play. I have been reading up on respectful parenting, and the use of natural consequences rather than punishment. I can see how it works in some instances, e.g. throwing a toy, take it away if it doesn't stop (he is a thrower so this is a relevant example!). However in a lot of instances I don't know what the natural consequence would be, and therefore how I work the situation. A few examples;

1. Brushing his teeth. Sometimes he just refuses because he would rather run around and avoid bedtime. I don't necessarily agree with just letting him say no, as surely he will just remember that he doesn't have to brush his teeth whenever he fancies? What is the natural consequence here - we've explained its important to look after teeth etc, but he doesn't care that his teeth might rot?! He just looks me square in the eye and says no , and sometimes throws his toothbrush. The throwing bit I am almost sure he does cos he knows he isn't meant to. But if I then remove the toothbrush, that's the perfect end for him?

1. Kicking and hitting. He sometimes does this mid tantrum if it's a big one, but I can handle those instances. I know that's an impulse he can't control and he is getting out a frustration. But he sometimes does it out of badness if we're trying to get him to do something he doesn't want to do, e.g. get ready for bed, I can almost see the cogs in his brain turning and it's a conscious decision to hit, again cos he knows he shouldn't. What's the natural consequence here?! If I remove myself from the situation, then I'm walking away from him which I've read I shouldn't do - I shouldn't abandon him when he's being challenging.

1. Getting dressed. He is awful at getting dressed in the morning, he has so much energy he is bouncing on the bed, running around upstairs, playing with his toys, we have to wrestle him into his clothes which I am trying to stop doing. But when he says no, the natural consquence would be that we can't go to the park, soft play, to see nana etc. But not going isn't very often an option?! We go places as a family, I might be meeting a friend for a play date, or quite simply, he has so much energy he can't be cooped up all day as he would be climbing the walls and I HATE days like those, all I do is wish the day away because he is so hard to entertain all day in the house.

I want to handle these scenarios in the best way, with setting sensible boundaries. I don't want him to rule the household, but I'm not sure I know what I'm doing some of the time.

I too have a 3, nearly 4, year old DS. Yours sound very similar to mine! I also aim for natural consequences rather than punishments, especially to make sure we don't sweat the small stuff and become punative, negative parents.

Teeth brushing, I remind him that they need doing to be healthy etc then if he is refusing I explain thatif that is his choice then he can't have any sugary things in his diet today/the next day then, as this will make his teeth worse. He has a glass of juice with his tea and maybe a corner yoghurt for pudding, really minimal sugar, but even the thought of having no banana compared to his sister and he changes his mind about not brushing them pretty quickly.

Getting dressed, I usually say OK if you won't let mummy help then you'll need to do it by yourself. Which he can't with everything so then usually changes his mind and says he wants help.

Hitting and kicking is rare for ours, but if he does I will explain that we are a kind and gentle family, hitting will not make me want to stay with him as he is hurting me. He will then stop and come for a cuddle pretty quick.

So much patience required for the routine things, I have no idea if the above is correct but it works with our DS and means we can keep a cool head then acknowledge his better choices.

The natural consequence of not brushing teeth is developing tooth decay and other problems... You can't let it get to that. To get through similar resistance at that age, I found it useful to give them a kind of incentive/reminder about something nice that comes next, e.g. "Once we've brushed your teeth then we can have [insert nice thing here that is part of your day e.g. bedtime story]" or make it fun in some way.

For getting dressed, we found timing the kids to be useful e.g. let's see how quickly you can get dressed!

Hitting and kicking - kids this age are still learning impulse control so it is likely really out of his control sometimes. He isn't doing it out of "badness" but feeling pressured or frustrated.

You might find Janet Lansbury's work useful. She's got a podcast and a book or two.

When ours were younger this is how natural consequences went for us:

1. Teeth brushing is non-negotiable for me, and wasn’t an occasion for natural consequences. In your case I’d sit and wait and not go anywhere until it was done. I had a lot of practise at this with dd!
2. Kicking and hitting natural consequence is that you leave the space and say why you’re doing it. No one wants to be with people who hurt them.
3. Not getting dressed really is a case of we can’t go anywhere until you’re dressed. If meet-ups with others get cancelled then so be it.

We used natural consequences most of the time, but limited choices for tooth brushing. Tooth brushing is non negotiable: it’s going to happen, and the choice is either you do it or I do it for you. Plus distraction: use a timer, play a song, brush at the same time as mummy.

dressing is similar : you do it or I’ll do it. In front of a cartoon worked for us.

hitting / kicking - the natural consequence is that I cannot play with you or even be near you as I have to keep myself safe too. You are right - it’s different to lashing out in anger. That more calculated hitting is when I do get up and walk away - just long enough for it to register, and then talk about it / distraction, talk when calmer.

Would you really cancel a meetup if your child was refusing to get dressed?? I don't think I'd be cancelling anything that I genuinely wanted to do just because my kid was not being completely co-operative! It's like punishing the parent to avoid having to impose something minor on the child.

@rainbowxlight I'm where you are on that one. He wouldn't give a toss that we haven't gone out, he lives for the moment and I have told him before that we can't go somewhere (which yes I haven't gone through with which I know is wrong) and he says that's great, he would rather stay and jump on the bed. As I've said in my OP, I am the one that suffers cos he ends up scaling the walls when kept indoors and uses his energy in places like rugby tackling me when i least expect, throwing things, jumping on sofa near where his baby brother is etc etc. He is not a calm child who just sits and plays!

You're overthinking it. The natural consequence of not brushing his teeth is that they will rot. That's why letting the natural consequence play out is not appropriate in the context of a toddler brushing his teeth. Use the right tool for the right job at the right time - natural consequences isn't it, here. Sometimes good old rules, rewards and punishments are all you can do. That, or all that clever stuff around distraction, imagination, making them think it's their idea. Or just forcibly brushing them. Etc.

With getting dressed, what if you just let him go to the park in his PJs? The novelty will wear off. And if he's refusing to put a coat on over them, he might change his mind when he feels the cold or the raindrops hit him. (Leaving the coat at home would let him feel the natural consequences, of course!)

The flaw of gentle parenting/natural consequences is that it just isn't appropriate in all circumstances. Fine if he throws a toy, you take the toy away. But things like cleaning teeth should be non-negotiable. So find some confidence to take control, find your firm voice, set some boundaries in your parenting. Teach your children that if you say "no" or "stop" or whatever else, then they listen to you and do as they are told. That doesn't mean shouting, or punishing, or anything scary. It just means that if you demonstrate that you are in control then they will respond.

For mine, the natural consequence of not brushing your teeth was that mum/dad is going to have do it for you, it was non-negotiable.

If he hits you, telling him that he has hurt you and removing yourself (or him) is fine, you're not abandoning him, you will only be in another room!

For getting dressed, if he's busy playing with toys instead, then the natural consequence is that they get taken away until he is dressed. Can you get him dressed somewhere that is more boring?

My son was the same. He'd be content to stay in and run around the house following me everywhere, while I went insane. The only thing that worked for us consistently that didn't aggravate anyone was making getting dressed into a game.

You can carry on with the natural consequences that don't seem to be working (he doesn't know what tooth decay is!) or you can implement some actual consequences of bad behaviour that will eventually make him think twice about not doing as he's told. Your choice.

I'm not very clued up on 'natural consequences' , but I've had 2 DC that were both a pain with brushing teeth/getting dressed. At their worst, we would put on a (short) cartoon. If they didn't cooperate with getting dressed / tooth brushing it got paused/turned off until they started doing what they were supposed to, then it went back on again.

Nothing wrong with bribery. Fun character toothbrushes, getting to watch a video while they do, adding a sticker to a chart, singing a song, making it a game. Or distraction and then just doing it. It's only two minutes.

My friends have a now 4yo who does the tackling thing as well and I really don't like it. He's better than he was but will just run up and basically headbutt you. They are fairly gentle parenting in approach, and mostly it's "no thank you" and ignoring, but I find myself tempted to tell him off because he's old enough to know better now! It's not pleasant to have someone doing that to you even if it's a child.

@Cindy1802 3yo DS here too. For us, brushing teeth is a non-negotiable, as are certain other things that he isn’t a fan of eg, taking antibiotics he needed when he was poorly or holding my hand to cross the road etc. I tell him “Mummy’s job is working in the shop…but my BIG job is making sure you are safe and looked after and healthy. That means I have to make sure your teeth are brushed/you are safe crossing the road/you take the medicine that you need to make you better”. We don’t do anything else until that is done because the “BIG job” is very very important 😅

Hitting doesn’t happen very often at all for us but I would absolutely walk away from him (provided he was safe) and explain that nobody wants to be around people that hurt them.

Getting dressed on time means he has time to play before we have to leave the house. The longer he takes, the less time he has to play. Simple as that. There no play until he’s dressed!

There should not be a natural consequence for brushing teeth for a toddler. It is also a non negotiable for us here too. Luckily by 3 mine were ok with it but at 1.5/2 we definitely had to hold them down sometimes to brush them (still being as respectful as possible but obviously it needs to be done). One horrific programme of children getting their teeth extracted due to decay was enough for me to never let them go to bed without brushing their teeth.

eidting the fuck out of this because it read as really sarcastic and dismissive when I was trying and failing to say it in a funny way.

There are some things you can't leave to natural consequences when natural consequences mean that the child just doesn't do x, y, z if they don't care about not doing it.

Or rather, the natural consequence of refusing to brush your teeth is being held and having it done by your parent because risking rotten teeth isn't a choice the kid gets to make.

The natural consequence of refusing to get dressed is being dressed, like it or lump it rather than oh dear you don't want to get dressed? guess we won't go to the gp appt then...

Some things you just have to get done with or without their cooperation because they are too important to fanny about debating and getting agreement. Sometimes you just have to say you ARE putting your fucking shoes on. With the fucking bit just in your head of course :D

Dressing : make it fun - the socks want to eat your tasty feet etc. give them a choice of which ones to wear. Make it a race etc. then I would say I’m going to have to help you now…and get them dressed if all else fails.

When my eldest misbehaved age 3 he got warnings and if he used up 3 warnings had to have thinking time on the step for 2 mins.

When out and about he got warnings and knew if he used up his third we'd pack up our stuff and go straight home. He knew I meant business as we only ever had to go home twice.

He's 5 now and a total breeze, really well behaved and lovely both at school and home. We have a lovely relationship and I can't remember the last time we ever had to sit him on the step.

For me natural consequences and gentle parenting are the starting points and I go from there. If I get to the end of the day and it's been predominately gentle parenting some days mostly gentle parenting is good too.

Teething brushing is completely non negotiable as my daughter has tooth decay due acid reflux. We have tried various things and keep having to mix it up. We go up in stages but at the end of the day if we have to pin her down and brush her teeth we do that. If it's because of a bad day we chalk it up to experience. If it's becoming the norm we switch up the routine so that it becomes the outlier again. We have done star charts with coloured crayons and she got to pick the colours. We introduced special stars that she could colour in for particularly good teeth brushing. We had the novelty of an electric toothbrush. We are currently on toddler teeth cleaning videos at the moment. She gets a choice of her choosing the video or we do.

We haven't had many issues with hitting but when she started we said we don't hit we cuddle. She gained nothing extra from the hitting so she stopped.

The hardest time was when she went through a phase of climbing on to the coffee table and launching herself off it. After telling her no and getting no where I put our bean bag close to the table with quiet time toys and books. I sat next to the bean bag and every time she climbed on the table I sat her next to me on the bean bag and I ignored the fact she had climbed the table whilst I played with her toys. She had been driving us mad doing it for a week. The first day took ages but the second day she did it a few times then stayed on the bean bag. it was one of those occasions where you have to manufacture natural consequences. The natural consequences would have been fall and hurt herself she was only 2 at the time. The consequences turned to engage with my mummy at the bean bag or be on the table and not play.

I haven't read the full thread so apologies if I repeat what others have said.

1, toothbrushing- It's a non-negotiable, so the natural consequence for me of a 3 year old not brushing themselves is that I do it all, they don't get to choose teeth or no teeth, they get to choose if they brush first followed by me, or if I brush the whole time.

2, hitting and kicking- I explain calmly that I won't let them hit/ kick/ hurt whoever they are lashing out at then, depending on the mood of the child and the situation, either deflect their lashing out with my forearm and continue to help them get ready for bed, or take a short break while talking through it- we had a lot of 'hands are not for hitting. Hands are for clapping, or high fiving, fingers are for wiggling' etc while working towards whatever non negotiable is happening, makign the 'hands are for' or 'feet are for' something that uses energy then getting back to the task at hand. 'Feet are for jumping, can you jump into these pj bottoms? Ready? Jump! Oh it didnt work. What about stretching, can you stretch your feet into the bottom of the trouser leg?" I found it was all about deflecting and diffusing at these sorts of pinch points.

3, Getting dressed- I would offer two choices, and be firm that it is time to get dressed, adding in some playfulness to remove the tension/ battle. 'Oh, it's time to get dressed! Is spiderman coming too or would you like to put him down? Ok, lets see who gets to your room first! 3... 2... 1... Go! Ok, here are the red trousers and here are the green ones. Which one do you want today? Great! Can you get a tshirt out of the drawer? Now, what goes on first, pants? Do they go on my head? No? Can you show me where they go? Now, socks. Do they go on your hands?' etc. Some days I feel like I sound like an insane cbeebies presenter but it seems to work! With shoes, there have been days where I've scooped up my child and their shoes and taken them to the car like that, then put the shoes on once we've arrived at the park/ soft play/ beach etc, before we leave the car.

Agree with @IncompleteSenten and it sounds to me that OP is already on the right track.

When a 3yo refuses to do something necessary the parent has to do it for them. That is the consequence. You could even bring bedtime forward because it is taking longer to brush their teeth- that is a natural consequence. If they start cooperating then bedtime can be pushed back.

Calculated hitting needs to be addressed every time. Instead of walking away, I would always hold my DD so that she couldn't lash out again. Then tell her firmly (but not shouting) that she is not allowed to hit or hurt other people. Every time she did it - I took hold of her again and went through it again. It did sink I that it was really important.

Also - he's three and very little. He's testing boundaries and having tantrums because you are maintaining boundaries. He'll grow out of it. So well done! Know you probably already know that but can't hurt to hear it again.

I did n't finish reading the OP, but you are getting too hung up on "natural consequences" and it is all a bit pointless. Why do you think "natural consequences" are better, or more likely to instil discipline? They are not. It is just a fad with a catchy title. Forget it.

Discipline works best when it is clear and immediate. It is absolutely fine to have the same sanction for every misdemeanour. Find one punishment he does not like, and use it.

I have a just turned 3 year old too. I don't bother with theories and 'natural consequences'.

Short, sharp instruction when needed. Non negotiable. Consistency. I never promise anything as a bribe, nor do I make false threats ie if you don't come here now, no park for you! And then take him anyway which is what I see a lot of parents do.

I would never use use physical punishment, nor do I shout unless it's urgent but I have a tone and commands when needed and they work somehow!

Don't overthink it I think is what I'm trying to say.