Suddenly Aggressive 4/5 year old, because of school?

[PoliteTurtle]

I am, for the most part, a “gentle parent” (although I do flip sometimes if the kids are pushing me far enough, as most of us do. No one is perfect!) My eldest has been a very placid, negotiable girl that listens and expresses her emotions well mostly, because I worked very hard to make that the case.

Four has been an exceptionally difficult age so far, terrible twos weren’t terrible at all, but four!? I was waiting for the day she started school…
And then she started school… and there is a girl in her class who has been so aggressive that my child has come home with a visible scratch on her cheek (to name one of 6 incidents since the start of school) and another child got bitten by this aggressive child quite severely (allegedly unprovoked).

I’ve noticed that this aggressive behaviour is following my daughter home and all methods of de-escalation I’ve implemented previously have basically stopped working. She is much more spiteful in her words now “I hate you” as an example, and once I start to put those boundaries down calmly at first, she goes straight to physical acts of defiance, e.g, punching, kicking, screaming like a banshee… all of which never happened before and I feel like I can’t understand her at all anymore. I am loosing sleep because I feel like I’m failing!

In all honestly, I’ve resorted to throwing her cheaper toys away when she gets physical with me as form of punishment, I’m sure there’s loads of reasons why that might be unhelpful but I’m honestly a bit lost as I’ve already spoken to her teacher about this other child and he tells me that it’s “just what some four year olds are like, still learning” but I just can’t shake the feeling that it’s not right…

Me throwing something away is a means to avoid me shouting, as I find shouting so triggering and stressful - if I’m honest, throwing away toys does work. But I do feel guilty about it, taking away her possessions (even if it is just a cheap plastic magazine toy she hasn’t played with in months)…
Since the biting situation I have said that it’s probably best she stays away from the other child, as not to get bitten herself, but my child is a friendly girl and really tries to be kind to everyone…

I just wanted to hear other peoples thoughts on disciplining that works for others in a similar situation and whether you think throwing her stuff away is too harsh…
Please be kind, I don’t know what to do!

Throwing her stuff away is too harsh.

Quite apart from anything else it's a waste.

If you are going to do it put the toys in a box in the garage/loft and say they are going away for a week.

I wouldn’t be throwing her toys away. My four year old went through a really rough patch with defiance and behaviour about 6 months ago and we would take a toy for 24 hours after a warning, or no screen time for the afternoon etc. it’s worked and now the warning is enough

We've found the only punishment that works is taking away the iPad, we just do 20 mins at a time so she can earn it back by being good for those 20 mins and we have a chat about her behaviour to explain why it has to be taken away. She's not bothered about toys. Good luck it's not easy Xx

Throwing her stuff away is bloody cruel and will teach her nothing except if mummy gets mad my things might be thrown in the bin. She's not going to relate it to her behaviour because let's be honest it has nothing to do with what she's doing. Throwing away her stuff because she hit you or screamed at you is not a natural consequence and teaches her nothing.

I'm also not sure how this relates to the other child at school it just sounds like she's got older and discovered she can push your buttons and assert some control. If she acts poorly give her some time out to think about her behaviour and remove yourself from the situation if you think you're likely to shout.

First off she will be very tired from starting school and as such less able to regulate emotions. Secondly if she is being hit, scratched at school then they need to tell you how they are going to keep your child safe. Yes they are young and yes they all need time to adapt to school but your child should not have to deal with being hurt. I would step back a bit, give her a safe space to express herself, have firm boundaries around being aggressive at home and stop throwing away the toys. Perhaps a jar to fill with marbles when she is kind or helpful and then a treat when it has say 5 or 10 in. Lots of praise and speak to the school.

I wouldn't bother throwing toys away, especially as you say she hasn't played with them for months. She wouldn't even notice.

I'm putting my head above the parapet here, to say that 'gentle parenting' is not a good parenting method. People say that when it's done properly, it involves boundaries, but there are times when children need to know, unequivocally, that their behaviour is not acceptable.

Have you tried being very cross?

Turn it round. Use your positives. Often any attention, even negative is good for a child.

Where do you praise for her good qualities? Set out again some limited expectations, when she meets them, praise and slowly raise the bar.

It could be tiredness, it could be that she is having to learn to compromise with others and is struggling. Life has changed from the routine, consistency and stable home life she's had. She is learning that others respond differently and struggling with this.

I wouldn't be throwing her things away.

Said with kindness, I wonder if you've maybe slipped from gentle parenting (which is authoritative and respectful and consistent boundaries are held in a firm and kind way) into being a little bit permissive because your child has otherwise been quite a calm and agreeable child. So now when she's trying to be more strong willed and test the boundaries you're almost in parent panic and are taking a reactionary and almost punitive approach (throwing her toys away to teach a lesson on a different behaviour)?

There's a good video of a Mum saying she put a boundary in about her son not pressing lift buttons, but then he started pushing them. She said she realised that she thought she was gently having a boundary but it wasn't a real boundary because she was telling him verbally and being kind but doing nothing physically to prevent him doing it. Of course he was going to see what he could get away with, he's a young child. She said that what actually holding the boundary was to give the verbal instructions AND position herself between him and the buttons, and if he kicked off she dealt with it through co-regulation because she knew how she was going to tackle it. I thought it was a good example.

Her school is probably a dog eat dog environment like ever other school right now and she’s not old enough to explain how unsafe and miserable she is there. Take her out of school for a few weeks, surround her with some calm and positivity and I bet her behavior will calm down

@Happyinarcon I did want to HE her as I’ve never really liked the school system much… but my husband disagrees. In a lot of ways School has given me freedom which I’ve been craving… but I do regret sending her in a lot of ways too. Not a lot I can do about sending her tbh!

Throwing toys away is so mean. I understand the need to do something but I can't imagine this.

The poor child is attacked at primary school and gets home and her toys get chucked by the person she's supposed to be able to trust. If this happened to my dc he'd go ballistic.

I suggest you reread the gentle parenting books.

@LolaSmiles Thankyou for your comment, I actually agree, I think I’ve possibly just expected too much from her and because she’s behaving differently now I am panicking.
I returned her toy (I only threw out one, and apologised), I implemented a reward system called a “button jar” at home to reward positive behaviour which has worked for a day but now she says she “doesn’t care about buttons” and has gone back to telling me she hates me, (I haven’t been giving her negative attention due to that mind…) last night, it was because she wanted a banana, and dinner was basically on the table! How evil am I!?🥲

@Shivermetimbers13 I have had an internal back and forth about gentle parenting as a whole and I agree with you.
I said in my other comment I have a reward system that lasted a day, before she declared she hates me for not letting her have a banana right before dinner last night…
I can confirm I have tried being very very cross 😅 but she doesn’t care much…

Have you got ‘How to Talk so Kids Listen and Listen so Kids Talk’? I found four a hard age for two of my three and mine didn’t go to school but were home ed. This really helped me deal with angry outbursts.

We've also started a reward chart but she gets 50p getting herself dressed and ready for school. But this can get taken away for bad behaviour, usual after school. She's reception and is totally overtired and overstimulated after school. So glad it's half term and she can unwind and slow down abit. She saves up her 50ps to buy accessories at build a bear shop as she loves it in there.

@gotmychristmasmiracle thats interesting! I was suggested by my friend to not take away the rewards because it highlights her bad behaviour once again so I have been avoiding that… I don’t know it’s a complete mess, I’m so happy it’s half term too, I get some actual undivided time with her finally and hopefully reverse some of this learnt behaviour….

@lilyfire ill have a look for that book! Thankyou!

I wouldn't punish at all. I wouldn't throw anything away.

She's trying her best with limited language and limited energy to navigate a very tricky situation.

She's struggling and you need to meet that with compassion. That can be very hard when they are physically hurting you. So you will need to develop your own emotional regulation techniques. Seeing you model that to her will be so helpful. She then can see ah I'm hurting mummy (because im deeply hurting) and she is doing some deep breaths to cope with that. It's by no means and overnight thing she is only 4 but talking about feelings the situation exploring some healthy ways to regulate and get that anger out. You can be a team together.

Definitely go back to school and ask how are they supporting both girls? They need to be doing more than some 4 year olds do this. They need support and the foundation of learning how to regulate their emotions and the language to express their feelings. In school they could have time out of the classroom for quiet time in the library or a break to do some big movements like star jumps to regulate their bodies again when emotions are running high.

Could she possible be sen and masking all week long and is absolutely exhausted? Low proprioception- fighting might meet her need for big movements.

If she was a teenager and came to you saying im struggling at school one girl is bullying me im so sad and lost I don't know what to do- your response was to throw her things away? It wouldn't make sense it would only show her she can't trust you. At 4 she doesn't have the language to tell you so she shows you how she feels by hurting you so you feel it too.

By all means still have boundaries such as im stepping away because you're physically hurting me so I'm keeping my body safe from you but I am here when you need a cuddle and we can talk about these big feelings you're having.

My 6 year old is really turning a corner with all of this at one point at age 4 I felt like I was in an abusive relationship with him worrying everytime he would come home I'd be bitten or punched. We now have all manner of tools to get those big frustrations out. Such as heavy work balls and a punching bag Swiss ball. So he gets that energy out and then we talk about how his day has gone. He has support at school in the same way breaks when he needs it. He is leaving the language to describe his feelings and what he needs to help him.

It's really hard and it's a life long lesson in trying to stay compassionate and patient. But these are such important skills that will help all of you navigate life.

*learning not leaving

yeah I already have been working on my own self regulation because I’m aware it’s not tip top (breaking generational patterns is tough ha!)
I want to say tho I’m not throwing stuff away at any sign of bad behaviour if that’s how it sounds. I only threw one toy away thus far, (and have since returned it with an apology). most days we do chat about her day, and work through it as best we can. But even after that, hours after I feel like we’ve got it out she is aggressive and shouty.
The point you made about being in a toxic relationship is how I feel, I only ever greet her with positivity, but only once she completely ignores me for ages or argues with me over the most random things, or I’ve asked reasonably for something basic 5000 times, my tolerance runs out I’ll admit. It just feels like I’m the dirt at the bottom of her shoe and I am never listened to!

. I only threw one toy away thus far, (and have since returned it with an apology). most days we do chat about her day, and work through it as best we can. But even after that, hours after I feel like we’ve got it out she is aggressive and shouty.
The point you made about being in a toxic relationship is how I feel, I only ever greet her with positivity, but only once she completely ignores me for ages or argues with me over the most random things, or I’ve asked reasonably for something basic 5000 times, my tolerance runs out I’ll admit. It just feels like I’m the dirt at the bottom of her shoe and I am never listened to!

So, you are apologizing to her, you are only ever greeting her with positivity, and you are asking her to do something basic multiple times.

To me, that doesn't sound like getting very cross.

Children need to know that someone is in charge, and that it's the adult, not them. It's confusing and upsetting for them to get away with shouting and ignoring a parent.

If I told my children off when they were young, they very much did care. There was no way I would have tolerated them arguing with me, and there was no apologizing to them later.

(They are now both in their mid forties with families of their own.) And they are in no way traumatized.

(Although I 'm sure someone will be along soon to tell me that they must be - I always find it amazing how internet strangers appear to know my family better than I do myself).

@Shivermetimbers13

With all due respect, parenting has changed quite a lot since you had small children and I did specifically ask for advice from others in a similar situation…

I see. Sorry I thought throwing the toys away was a deliberate tactic. I think we all lose our rag sometimes so in that case I don't mean to criticise.

My child is on occasion like this. I think it's partly an age thing. They learn this way of behaving and are struggling to cope with emotions. I do think she's probably struggling with something and lashing out. I think when mine does if he's just fed up of school at that point and getting grumpy. I don't think what your child is doing is unusual, but the frequency of it.

Have you asked school what is her behaviour like there? Has dc said what school is like for her, though clearly there's the issue of this kid attacking her. It sounds awful, Have the school done anything about it or taken steps to reassure your daughter? Perhaps there's a sense of injustice this has happened.

Despite being a very modern gentle parent I agree with the poster above in a way. Also I say to my child how do you feel etc..but I also say certain things are never acceptable. I say I understand youre angry. Please tell me why. However I am not being spoken to like this. I will not play/discuss etc until you are nicer to me. Then I dont engage. I won't shout etc but I'm not being friendly to someone who is disrespecting me. Obviously ill meet his needs but nothing more. I give him time to think. This usually works in 5 mins as he'll want something I don't know if it works for all kids.

Sounds like a tired, overwhelmed 4 yo as so many of them are when they start school. No offence, but just like this difficult phase isn’t your fault, the time when she was a very placid, negotiable girl that listens and expresses her emotions well probably wasn’t because you worked hard, but because she was still in the relatively biddable toddler stage that they all eventually grow out of around age 3-6, often on starting school. It’s a massive leap in learning, especially around how their behaviour and words affect others and how they fit in with their peers.

I think ‘all behaviour is communication’ is sometimes trotted out a bit too easily. But here, I 100% think that is the case. She isn’t mature enough to say ‘hey mum, school is really tricky right now, so much learning and navigating other children and time away from parents, no wonder I’m feeling grumpy and overwhelmed’. She throws a tantrum instead.

I’d honestly say, don’t sweat the small stuff. Stop throwing her toys away and/or making her work for buttons. If she talks to you like dirt, grey rock it and walk away. If she says she hates you, tell her you love her and get on with life. If she gets physical, physically remove yourself. If she doesn’t want her tea then so be it. Natural consequences are she is hungry. This will pass, but there isn’t any point making everything into a battle in the meantime. It’s taken me well over 6 months of this with my also once lovely, but now often horrible nearly 4 yo to work out that they need you to be neutral and firm. Now isn’t the time for punishment (as you’ll be giving out a spiralling amount of punishments, when the first doesn’t work). Offer regular opportunities for affection but if they push you away then don’t force it. Anything more than praising the good and grey rocking the bad makes it ten times worse in my experience.