Struggling with DD(4) and her moods

[Childminderwoes]

sorry this is long.

DD(4.5) used to be a happy, giggly, pretty well behaved kid but since turning 4 it’s like she’s turned into a teenager.

She has 2 modes - either OTT screaming/laughing/demanding attention by constantly talking and interrupting everything you say (and I mean EVERYTHING), or flat and sullen where she will flat out ignore you and practically roll her eyes whenever you say something. In between she has massive tantrums over silly things - her ponytail being too tight, the sun in her eyes, that kind of thing. She won’t complain first she just goes straight to screaming and crying and this awful ‘eh eh eh’ whining type noise that I’m pretty sure she puts on.

Today has been awful. Every little thing she immediately starts screaming and crying. There’s no time to deescalate or whatever before she launches into a full-on tantrum where any kind of calming techniques just won’t work. Tying her hair up, putting on shoes, putting on her coat, getting in her car seat - everything generates immediate screaming and crying and thrashing around (we had her hair cut short this afternoon so that’s solved anything hair related). She almost compulsively interrupts whenever I speak to DP, over and over and over getting louder until I tell her off then it’s more tears.

She constantly winds up her 10 month old brother by doing this manic screaming laugh in his face and being rough with him. I can’t leave them together for a moment because it’s ALL the time. He’s nervous around her now and constantly looks to me whenever she’s in the room to check I’m there to help him.

When she isn’t engaged in some kind of drama she goes a bit flat, doesn’t reply if I speak to her, just sullen.

She just never seems to be in a happy, pottering around, chatty mood. Just extremely excitable and attention seeking, tantrumming or flat.

We aren’t ‘gentle parent’ types but neither do we shout/smack, we just speak clearly and firmly, give clear warnings, and if she continues to scream at us or even hit then a treat is removed.

To pre-empt a few things, she has no signs of ND, lots of friends, great imagination, enjoys school and eats well. She’s settled into school with no issues and generally sleeps 12 hours a night although DS is a poor sleeper and I’m sure since he was born her sleep has been made lighter by his constant waking and crying, although she doesn’t wake. She doesn’t have a lot of screen time, we read, she enjoys going out on her scooter or for beach walks, spends a couple of teatimes a week with her Nan and dad to have a bit of time to feel like the focus away from DS.

Any ideas? I love her so much but feel like we just don’t ‘get’ each other at the moment.

This sounds almost exactly like my soon to be 5 granddaughter. I recognise both of these moods.

She is co parented, spending equal amounts of time with both and has done this since birth.

She lives both her mum and dad and half siblings but we are wondering now whether the parenting styles are very different and she takes it out on mum as she says " don't tell daddy " if she misbehaves.

Dad, after a fairly supportive start has distanced himself from her maternal side of the family. She meets up with aunties, uncles and cousins as frequently as as can be arranged. Dad is an only child of an only child so not many relatives that side.

We don't speak about dad in a negative manner, in fact make a point of being positive about the good things.

He is hard to communicate with regarding school info and not sure he has the app. Eg she didn't wear a numbers outfit/ tea shirt on Friday despite it being dad overnight and school drop off. He had been sent the info from school by my daughter.

He presents as very calm and " together" in fact sees himself as something of a guru so would think he would have his child's best interest as top priority but little doubts keep popping up.

He doesn't acknowledge info messages which makes life harder as don't want to seem to badger but never sure that his daughter will attend an event etc.

It almost seems that he is very subtly trying to punish my daughter for some reason

Granddaughter always wants to go there, only 5 mins walk away so not worried that she is frightened but the behaviour is off the scale of anything I've seen and I worked in a school and have 7 other gcs.

I don't interfere or overstep boundaries as just want her to be at ease.
Anybody else experienced similar? There was no traumatic break up/ divorce, not together before she was born ....

DD was similar at 4, we discovered through trial and error it was because she was feeling something she couldn't quite recognise and also because she had plans in her mind for what would be happening and felt thrown when they didn't happen (even though we're not bloody mind readers and she didn't tell us what she wanted!)

We saw a big improvement when we started communicating more clearly with her. So in the morning it would be:

• hey DD, good morning, I want you to get washed up then come downstairs and I'll make breakfast. Would you like weetabix or toast today?

• here's your weetabix, after breakfast I need you to get dressed, then we'll be leaving for school at xx

• great job eating all your weetabix, now go get dressed and I'll brush your hair, do you want pony tail or plaits?

..........

It was all about setting a bit of a routine and giving her time to think about each step and what would happen next rather than springing it on her.

I think she’s showing lots of signs of being ND. My dd was exactly like this at 4

Thanks but she isn’t ND.

@FlabMonsterIsDietingAgain thanks I will give it a go.

She LOVES being around other people - friends, relatives, she even gets excited when ASDA delivery man turns up 😂 she’s very sociable and to be honest, we’re not. She’s extremely extroverted and because our friends/family live 2 hours away (we moved a couple of years back and don’t have a roaring social life here) I wonder if our routines are boring her.

Equally she is thrilled if we do a new or unusual activity, she was breathless with excitement when I took her for her haircut today because she knew she would get to talk to the hairdresser and see inside the salon!

It’s like she considers us all a bit dull, as odd as that sounds, and is further frustrated now we have DS and have to water plans down even further to accommodate him.

I’ve been looking into new hobbies she can try but there isn’t much on around here. She’s begged for riding lessons (she’s had a few one off pony rides before) but I feel she’s a bit young to make it a regular thing.

What about an outdoor pursuits centre, we have one in our city that run holiday clubs and weekend half or full day sessions. Bushcraft, kayaking, bell boats, climbing, archery etc

Have you checked the boards in leisure centres and libraries, often they run karate, dance, gym classes but you can only find out by looking at the board there's nothing online.

Sorry didn’t mean that to sound brusque, just that she has zero social or communication issues, her eye contact, speech etc is all very good. She’s very sociable and has no issues with routine change either, in fact it thrills her as I’ve mentioned up thread. No problems with food, no habits or tics or obsessions. She loves people and being out and about.

Mine was also exactly like this. There were subtle signs ( wouldn’t wear buttons) but that was the only thing.

ND girls can talk and chat for England. Mine had great eye contact.

Thanks I will bear in mind, there’s a ND consultant coming into the school in a couple weeks, would they dismiss through lack of symptoms?

We didnt have the terrible 2s, we had the fucking 4s.
We don't really speak about it, our bright sociable child turned into a screaming banshee. She was destructive and quite frankly a nightmare.
Turns 5 and we think she then discovered the emotional maturity to understand situations better and she was back to our lovely dd.
Feel for you though.

This is how I feel. At 2 and 3 she was happy, mischievous but in a lovely way, just a delight really. She turned 4 and her moods are just so extreme. The only times I catch a glimpse of her previous self is just before bed (assume because she’s tired and relaxed) and she chats to me normally, or sometimes when it’s just us 2 walking home from school together. And latterly she’s still in her ‘excitable’ mood half the time - messing around to the point of falling over repeatedly, ignoring me, screaming that she doesn’t want me to hold her hand etc

You could be describing DS1 who is 4 in a couple of months. He has 3 moods we’ve nicknamed ‘the 3 W’s’ - Wild (running around, screaming, cackling, getting in people’s faces, poking and prodding), Whinging (every single thing he says) or Wailing (screaming tantrums). I’d say this absolutely horrendous phase started between 3 and 3.5 for us, so has been going on for about 8 months (sorry). He was a tricky baby but an absolute angel between the ages of 1 and 3. I thought I had toddler parenting nailed down…how wrong I was.

I hope I’m not getting ahead of myself, but things feel like they have calmed down a little the last few weeks. We have been extremely consistent about whinging. Every single damn time he whinges something we ask him to repeat what he has said in a normal voice. It’s painful progress and some days it’s literally all we say. Maybe it just the phase ending, but in the last few weeks he has been asking for things or telling us things without whinging so much.

I’d also say the wild sessions are settling a bit. At its peak, he was capable of destroying the house or injuring others numerous times per day. They are happening less, last for less time and are less awful when they do. We never found any way to manage these really. DH or I would often just hold him (getting hit and kicked) so he wouldn’t hurt others. We found these episodes were worse in the house so we spent a lot of time outdoors. Having said this, I literally had to floor him in a cafe today when he decided to go off on one and ran, screaming, full pelt at someone today carrying hot soup.

I think this is just a real awful phase some DC go through as they learn more about their place in the world and emotional maturity. Seems to happen anytime between 3 and 6 ish. I hope for both of our sakes it settles quickly!

https://autisticgirlsnetwork.org/keeping-it-all-inside.pdf

This describes ASD girls.

Maybe look at ADHD too

Honestly these do sound like a lot of ND traits to me, in a bright little girl. Sounds like she is struggling with sensory stuff and transitions at least, (and common that this all bursts out, out of school!). Not easy for you at all, sounds like you are doing a great job, I would just work on those 2 issues, accomodating her where you possibly can, she is probably tired out from starting school, and needs things simple and slow outside of it? Lots of NT kids can be hard work at home during reception, too.

Ok I’ve had a read and there’s a lot in there I didn’t know about so thanks. I will go to this consultation at school and see what they say. I’ll also check in with her teacher and see how she’s getting on. It’s hard. I just want my happy girl back.

Any ideas? I love her so much but feel like we just don’t ‘get’ each other at the momenta

l used to feel like this all the time. That we were just a bad fit. Whatever we did was wrong for her.

She’s 17 now and delightful. I totally get her. But those early school years were constant firefighting invisible things.

Just found some of my old threads from years ago. Very like your 4 year old!

What helped you to ‘get’ her can I ask? What should I do now?

Maturity. An ASd diagnosis was the main thing. That made me understand her.

Doesn't the change coincide with the arrival of her brother? Could she have low level anxiety about the amount of attention she is getting at home? She won't be able to understand it or verbalise it but just react to her emotion through drama and disruption

I remember going through a period at about that age with my ds where I must have told him “I dont speak whine” about eleventy billion times every day and he had at least 10 daily time outs for tantrums. I found that it passed faster when I held the line on my behaviour expectations and was 100% matter of fact and unemotional in responding to his emotions (which is what the tantrum and whining was) You really have to come down hard on messing with the 10 month old though as that could be a big problem.

try reading the book Raising your Spirited Child