Please help me with my unruly kids, I can't cope anymore

[xxxJess123xxx]

hi all my kids are just turned 8 and just turned 5, oldest girl and youngest boy.

their behaviour is actually driving me to depression and I genuinely cannot cope.
it starts from the moment they wake. DD won't get out of bed, dressed, teeth you name it, so won't do it. iv tried numerous punishments and it works for an hour then back to square one. She can be rude, defiant and answers back. Pushes the boundaries constantly. Talks in an annoying deep loud voice (purposely) when over excited, which is constantly.
Is apparently an angel at school and doing well in all areas, excelling actually so its obviously just me.

DS is an absolute nightmare. Taking him to the shops sees him run off, pick things up from the shelves, not listen, I tell him off or hold him hand so you throws himself around/on the floor and screams blue murder. I have had people tut and huff and stare at me which is actually soul destroying.
Indoors he runs full pelt everywhere, does front flips on the sofa, is so loud and doesn't listen to a word I say. Again I have tried all sorts of punishments, time out in room, taking toys away, taking weekend screen time away (not allowed any Monday to Friday as makes behaviour 10x worse) but again nothing works.
I have even tried the over the top love bombing parenting but it only works for a short time and it just back fires in my face.

Together, they fight constantly, with hitting, kicking, shoving and slamming doors in faces. Just before bed is the worse, with them genuinely acting possessed running and fighting.

No one wants to come round and see me.
I hate taking them anywhere
I hate being at home.
im so embarrassed by how much I have failed as a parent.
I just feel like I am slowly loosing my mind.
I have a husband, he works long hours. I work school hours. They behave the exact same for him.

Im so sorry for the essay and writing it all on here but I don't know how to carry on xx

Love bombing is not the same as praising good behaviour. Try not to be punishing all the time. Praise works so much better.
8.30 bedtime for a 5yo is very late, it's on the late side for a just 8yo. May be earlier bedtime would help.
Above all, a strong routine and consistency.
Don't keep changing your method - stick to one.
I would start with a family meeting and set out some broad boundaries - which ever are the worst things.
It does sound as though it's all down to you - your DH really needs to be involved and use the same approach. My DH worked long hours but was still involved.

6yo and 8yo both in bed 7pm lights out, but they're up before 6am most days....

Yes it is all down to me unfortunately. He is up at 5am all week and then has a lie in until around 9am weekends and I’m the default parent.

it is hard in a flat, very hard. It’s a council property (lucky I know) and we have been here since I was pregnant with my DS.
no chance of moving anytime soon so we are using right to buy and then can sell in 5 years but that’s forever away

they are definitely worse together 100%
im thinking of somehow splitting their room or worse case having a room each and me and husband have front room and sofa bed

I am very proud they are doing so well at school but they seem to come home and either hate me or the home as they start straight away

i I will try more outdoor time and possibly split the day with my husband so I take them out in the morning and he can have them in the afternoon.

Quite a few years ago there was a TV series called Supernanny and each episode focussed on a family struggling with kids behaviour. I recommend you find it and watch. I genuinely think I absorbed a lot of behaviour management ideas from it that helped me as a parent and a teacher.

Still worth starting it as it may give some light on things, in any case meanwhile there are behavioural tips which may help even without diagnosis. Try some ADHD parent forums.
So sympathise, had two lads one with autism the other just plain bloody difficult. He got kicked out of school twice too, so at least you have that. Felt, so, so useless and isolated for years. Now in his 30s, settled, full time job, rather unusual lifestyle but what the heck. Autistic DS is doing well too.

It will be difficult to get good advice online as you will literally receive directly conflicting advice from different people with different approaches.

I just wanted to say you haven't failed as a parent and you should be more kind and forgiving toward yourself. Your children are thriving at school, which is fantastic. You can't have done everything wrong! I also appreciate how soul destroying it is when the little people you love most are vile to you day after day (and to top it off you feel horrible about shouting and punishing so much).

I am an advocate of respectful parenting and I think it is adaptable and works for many types of children. I like books like "the book you wish your parents had read" and "how to talk so kids will listen". I have heard there are good books out there for parenting volatile kids too "the explosive child". I think you can involve your kids in this too, there is a book called "my hidden chimp". I think you would be able to develop your own more consistent approach by accessing resources like these and seeing what works for you.

Good luck

Punishment isn't very effective on its own and love bombing is great for helping repair or improve a relationship, but isn't that good for improving specific behaviours in a targeted way.

With punishment what they say is that only something very token/basic is necessary because punishment only works as a component in a larger system anyway. The overall system should be more positive, targeted and specific in order to be effective.

If you are finding that punishment isn't working and/or you're constantly having to increase it to something stronger then you have one of two problems:

1. Your overall system isn't structured enough
2. Your child can't meet your expectation

It makes sense to start with the system because this works for the majority of children. This is a good one: https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting/home/welcome

The course is free and you can just do a small part and then stop and practice the tools before you continue. Each tool is usable on its own and you can start with the first one immediately and get helpful effects, but they do work best when combined together.

They both sound high energy/sensory seeking which can be a component of ADHD (or might not be anything diagnosable at all). It's worth getting on an ADHD waiting list especially for your DS I would say. It doesn't hurt anything and if you don't need the appointment any more by the time it comes around you could always cancel it. Thinking about them as needing exercise/walks like dogs is a very good way to think about it as it does really help with children with high energy. You can look more into this later (sensory seeking is a good search term) but starting just with daily physical activity will probably help immediately.

What commonly happens when you have children with this kind of profile is that you will ask them to do something, they will refuse/be rude back and you'll get annoyed or angry and ask them in a firmer tone, they will then increase the rudeness and you get angry and threaten something and then they get angrier which means you end up threatening more, it's like a spiral. Then the general outcome of this is that either you end up snapping and doing something you regret (giving a harsh punishment, screaming/bellowing, maybe being physical with them e.g. hitting or pushing or dragging) OR in order to avoid this you leave the situation and they have successfully avoided whatever it was you asked them to do. Once you have got into this pattern, it won't usually go away on its own - you have to totally change your approach. If this is a common pattern in your household, and it's quite taboo to admit that it is, the above course is a targeted intervention that works very well to address that. (It's also generally a helpful parenting course even if this isn't happening).

Troubleshooting
If you go through the course and implement the steps and it's still not helpful then you have probably moved into "child can't meet expectations". There is some exploration of "can't meet" in the course in the shaping technique (where you break down a wanted behaviour into achievable steps) - this is a good thing to try first, but you might want to also think about other steps such as looking at some kind of assessment.

Another good option to try for "can't meet expectations" is Ross Greene's Explosive Child technique - this is a problem solving approach which rather than trying to motivate the child to behave differently enables you to discuss with them how to meet the expectation in a way that meets both your and their needs (A good introductory talk on youtube if you search "Ross Greene ODD ADHD")

If you find that it's hard to keep yourself calm enough to do the steps of the parenting course, there is a great book called When Your Kids Push Your Buttons which helps both with emotional regulation strategies for yourself and some of the seeing-both-sides approach which can help communication between you and the DC. If you are struggling in general you may also want to ask your GP for mood support (antidepressants, counselling, possibly look into perimenopause, ADHD etc) or whether they can refer to any in-person parenting support, because in person can help more than online.

If exercise seems to help a bit, but not enough, then look into more sensory support. "Sensory seeking" is a great search term though this is a bit of a wild west of confusing/conflicting info. Sensory needs are mainly associated with autism although there is more recent thinking that they can apply in a less extreme way to ADHD and to some people without any kind of diagnosis.

If even positive reinforcement seems to be making things worse, look into demand avoidance - again the Ross Greene techniques can be good for children who struggle with demand avoidance. (I don't know a lot more about it than this).

If their more defiant/aggressive behaviour is strongly linked with the hyperactivity and it doesn't respond in any way to any kind of motivation (positive or negative) or if you have a sense they aren't really "in control" when they are doing this, look up "stress behaviour" or "dysregulation behaviour". The three brain model (cognitive/emotional/survival) can be useful here (found in Conscious Parenting, Dan Siegel's books, and Self-Reg by Stuart Shanker).

bertie thank you so much for your detailed reply.
I will definitely look into that course, that’s something that sounds like it would help xx

I am a night owl and my natural body clock is not compatible with the 9-5 world we live in.

To get out of bed in order to get to work I have a lumie wake up alarm clock about 6 regular alarms on my phone and 2 alarms that I have to do something to turn them off such as memorise a pattern or solve some simple sums.

I have to wake my toddler up every morning too and she is not happy with it. I'm not lazy and have at times worked 70+h weeks but to get out of bed in the morning it is a huge effort. My barrier to go from sort of asleep back to fully asleep is very low hence the many many alarms. Unfortunately I have find a way to fit into the 9 to 5 world as its imperative for work and school. It sounds like your daughter needs help with this too. The lumie alarm is the best thing I have and after that the most annoying alarm you can find.

I will have a look at that alarm as iv never heard of those xx

Thank you for all the advice you’ve posted for the OP @BertieBotts . The pattern you’ve mentioned in your 8th paragraph can be exactly what happens in my house.

OP I have two boys 8 and 5. My eldest is diagnosed with ADHD, my youngest has no diagnosis of anything but I think he could be autistic, either way he’s a highly sensitive person. I recognise a lot of what you say.

My eldest has so much exercise and it really really helps. I also try and be firm, have boundaries, but acknowledge feelings and be kind to their struggles. It’s hard and I get it wrong a lot of the time but I’m really trying and things do go so much better when I’m not shouting like a fish wife every 5 minutes. I follow a lot of accounts on instagram which really help - conscious parenting, dr Becky at good inside, dr Martha psychologist. I save posts and keep trying to remind myself. I also have accepted that I need a low dose of sertraline to keep my moods stable.

Good luck.

I haven't read the full thread (am watching pottery!) Similar ages to my kids, I'm a year ahead. Thoughts I had are to split them up where you can. Sign them up to clubs. My Dd prefers to be out and busy and is better for it. Winter school hol is the worst! I read a book called 123 magic that was helpful, in addition to the ones mentioned up thread which I agree with. Your youngest, could you get a trampoline, a gymnastics bar in the house, one of those indoor swings for sensory?

My daughter is a night owl too and hard to get her to get up or go to bed. Sympathy!

You haven't failed they're still so young and in a difficult phase.

My advice would be get them both into time consuming and physical hobbies. Your 8 year old may be resistant but the 5 year old is probably too young to have too much say. Get them both into an exhausting sport - gymnastics/ football / swimming and get them doing long sessions a few times a week. It will tire them out, teach them discipline and keep them out of your hair for a large part of the week. Yes you may have to watch them but if they're good at school they'll likely follow the rules and discipline of a sport.

I'd make this non negotiable it sounds like they have too much energy.

I will look at some sort of after school sport club. At the moment, we just come home into chaos so would probably do them good to have an activity.
Logistically may be a nightmare as would then have to bring the other one along with me as DH isn't in until 6pm some nights and whilst my daughter may sit and watch, I can imagine it being hard work trying to occupy my son and stop him causing chaos

The book 123 Magic has been mentioned a few times so I will look for this too.

Perhaps it will be easier come spring with being outdoors more and lighter nights. We only have around an hour of daylight after school so any park trip will be very short as none in walking distance

Does the school do any after school clubs? Ours does things like choir, drama, fencing, football.

123 Magic is the same system basically as the course that I mentioned. Beware that it contains a description of child abuse that I found very hard to read and wish I had not read - the author was explaining that the program/book had been prescribed to a parent who was convicted of child abuse and it allowed them to change their patterns and parent peacefully.

I think the course is better and more up to date but if you prefer reading then the book is also an effective way into the same theory.

@Christmaswonder the pattern is so taboo. Or at least, IME it is. Last week was literally the first time I'd seen it written down and explained. Apparently, the problem is that it is actually extremely rewarding for both parent and child. Of course, it doesn't FEEL rewarding, because after an episode like that I would feel guilty, useless, disgusting, like an utterly awful human being and stressed about it - I would often cry. DC of course would also be extremely stressed/distressed. Just absolutely awful and nobody wants to live like that.

When DS1 was little we had that dynamic a lot. It was terrible. At the time I was very very into "gentle parenting" (which is a term I no longer use because the meaning has spread so far it's not a useful term, but it was in common use at the time with a tighter meaning at least among people I was in conversation with) and basically the consensus in GP is that shouting/threatening/punishing is BAD and probably causes all of the other problems. So of course - how can you admit that you regularly slide into that on a gentle parenting space? And none of the gentle parenting tools were working, yet sometimes - just sometimes - the shouting and so on did actually work (even though it made us both feel like garbage and I knew I shouldn't do it). That, apparently, is where the "rewarding" bit is - if you feel like it's your only tool which works, then you'll use it even if you know it's bad. And on the DC's side, if them carrying on works to get them out of whatever it is they don't want to do, even sometimes, they will use it. Under the theory of behaviourism, an intermittent reward (the reward being the child doing as asked, for the parent, or for the child, escaping the task set) is MORE effective than a consistent one - it's the principle behind why gambling and social media are so addictive.

That is why you replace those (parental) behaviours with a calm and measured response which neither escalates nor allows the "escape" from whatever it is they were asked - for many many families it is transformative.

(For some it's not and then you need the other stuff.)

Having read all your issues and having worked in behaviour for a long while (25 years plus) there are a surprising amount of children who behave like yours do, especially in the home. It’s not much consolation for you but from a behavioural aspect, this kind of thing happens a lot. I have parents that seem to have it all together and getting it right and then “bang” you find they aren’t.

I think picking your battles is really good advice. Look at the behaviour, is anyone being hurt ? Is your intervention going to make a difference or are your kids simply going to switch off and not listen ? Do you use distraction ? Do you have the time to play with them both on their own and together ? Attention, and any attention at that is a real objective for kids at that age.

I spend a lot of time asking questions. What I’m I going to say next ? If you are late for school who will be getting told off ? An eight year old can be made accountable. I like that you are consistant and have consequences but i feel you need to try and separate the behaviour from the child. Sometimes it will work, sometimes it wont, but nobody is getting it right all the time.

Remember, perfect at school ? School is a carefully structured environment where goals are clear and behaviour thats expected is reinforced - its not tired parents after a long day at work trying their best whilst thinking they are getting it all wrong or that their kids are a nightmare. In my experience everyone is taking it day by day. Give yourself a break, neither of them are hurt. Two kids in a flat under ten should be loud. That’s a veery good sign, believe me.

Theres some good advice on here, I just think you need to be kinder to yourself

For the weekends, I suggest you take the 6 yo out as soon as possible (assuming DD will be sensible while dad sleeps). Dad then needs to exercise them both weekend afternoons. Take them to the park every day after school (get decent clothes for this). Walk or scoot the long way round. They sound massively under exercised and being good at school won't help.

My DD's like this and she's got way better since taking up football.

No specific advice really, but would definitely try to up the amount of physical activity they can do (especially DS). My DS6 and DS9, are both loud and need a lot of time burning off energy - thankfully we have a garden - can't imagine how hard it would be in a flat. My 2 came on a 2 hr walk at the weekend and wanted to go on the trampoline when we got home (it was too cold so they came inside after 10 mins!). I'd definitely incorporate more cycling, running, or something into each day after school - i think some boys struggle having to sit down most of the day for lessons and then need a release afterwards. Also, I know looking for things to praise them for works well- Its so easy to keep reminding them to do stuff and forgetting to praise them when they are doing something right (I know because I forget, and then see how it works when i remember to praise them - especially if I can praise the one who is behaving well, it encourages the other to follow suit).

Thank you for your replies, again really helpful

the course will probably be better for me tbh so I’m thinking more towards that. Thank you for the warning

yes the school does have after school clubs but my DD isn’t sporty at all and I won’t force her to do something she doesn’t want to do

football starts in year 1 (son is in reception)

yes it’s a shame we are in a flat, that’s going to the situation for 5 years until we can sell (right to buy)

update
so we have had a much better day. I can't believe how much of a difference/change it has made to the day. Don't get me wrong, it still was carnage at times but I have been thinking about your replies all day.

So after school, we had snacks and then my son has little pop up goals which he wanted to put up in the front room. I would usually say no, but I thought about the getting rid of energy. So we played kicking a soft teddy into the goals. My DD saw and joined in. Few arguments, but overall we had a good time.

Tiny little things I was praising, well done for kicking the ball so well, thank you for waiting your turn etc

I would have tried to get outside but its -1 and snowing so football inside would have to do.

We then played hide and seek guns as a family. Lots of running and shouting but good type (sorry neighbours!)

They have just gone to bed and I have told each one thank you for such a lovely afternoon and bedtime.

xx

Aww that's great. I'm glad you've had a better day :)

Bertie , I just feel so guilty it's been this bad for this long. the poor kids x