My 5 year olds behaviour

[Dontthinkthrice]

Hi everyone.
My 5 year old is my middle child. He was a quiet baby… basically the absolute dream child until about 2.5 but he always worried me, he was too quiet.
He has had a speech and language delay but he’s almost caught up and is August born. He’s in a very good private school with a little extra support but not needed as much as others. He has easier spellings/work than the others and has a TA on the table with him and 2 others. He’s year 1 but reading reception books and doing mostly reception work. Socially he’s fine with his peers and has a friendship group.
He has a file with the SEN Dr but it’s just observational until he’s 7ish unless something really stands out but they’re really not concerned.

At school he’s quiet in lessons but well behaved, polite and ‘the loveliest little boy’. He’s obviously well behind his peers but he’s oblivious.

At home, he is a flipping nightmare.
He’ll think nothing of trying to rip his older sisters hair out, smacks, scratches and generally is a horror.
He doesnt seem to understand ‘no’. He isn’t bothered by any punishment, he’ll basically laugh at me. The only thing that will stop him in his tracks is physically putting him outside but that’s if I can actually do it, he’s super strong and will just fight me.

I’m going to bullet point a few examples because I think it’ll be easier to read…

• He was told off yesterday for squeezing his younger brothers head (his favourite thing this month) this was already his second chance as he’d been snatching and generally a mean so my hubby told him he’d be put outside if he did it again, his response was thumping bum in the stomach as he left the room 🤷🏻‍♀️ this is normal behaviour for him
• We collected our Xmas tree at the weekend and he was frustrated he couldnt keep up with the others so was walking with me and in the videos you can hear him saying ‘I don’t like you, I’m not your friend you’re a poo arse’ and making noises/screaming. This happens most days.
• he’ll be playing nicely with his brother but then impulsively smash down or totally wreck what ever they’ve done/built and then hit him with something
• he can’t help but touch the elves, I’ve tried to explain over and over that you can’t touch them, we’ve read the book & his sister has tried to tell him but he just can’t stop himself. He gets upset when I explain the elves have seen his bad behaviour and will be reporting to Santa, but he’ll do it again later. He just can’t stop himself.
• sugar is a massive problem, he’s so driven to pig out on chocolate (he’s not overweight, he’s a perfect size but weirdly strong) if he has one small treat he’ll raid the cupboard for more and nothing can get in his way, I often find he’s been stools reaching for hidden things and then hiding in corners eating them …. How many times I’ve told him not to do this I can’t even begin to count.
• He’s not a bolshy child, he’ll be very shy around unknown children and if he doesn’t have his big sister with him he wouldn’t go near play equipment with other children on it. I took him and youngest to soft play a few weeks ago and he just kept getting so angry with me when other children came on what he was on. Pinching me, making growling noises telling me I was horrible.

I feel like he’s a 2-3 year old in a 5 year olds body at home with this behaviour. Is it that he doesn’t understand things or is he just naughty? I can’t work it out.
I’ve had to tell my husband that we need to approach as if he just doesn’t understand, because that’s how I feel.

But don’t get me wrong, in between this he’s gorgeous. He is making progress. for example In the last year we’ve gone from wrestling his uniform on with him screaming and kicking me to him getting himself dressed and he is super proud. He can and does play nicely with his siblings and he loves them both so much. They love him too and my eldest is fiercely protective of him at school. He shows empathy and is so kind when he’s in the right mood

I try so hard to label his feelings, I’ve read all the books! He’s started saying ‘I feel jealous’ which is great! I know he’s jealous of his little brother (who is a very clingy 2 year old) and he is a middle child. I try so hard to do everything right.
Yesterday he said he was feeling jealous when his sister had grabbed my phone and started watching YouTube on the way home from school. I had already asked her to turn it off so I told him well done etc etc and then she did turn it off but then once it was resolved he started saying horrible things and kicking my chair repeatedly.

Im being told he’s an angel at school and that’s what matters so there’s no need for concern, he knows when he NEEDS to behave and I’m his safe space to act out but it’s just TOO much at home.

Any advice would be greatly received.

Just to add he’s a nightmare at the dinner table. He won’t eat dinner if he doesn’t like the look of it and he’ll throw food at me/accross the room that he doesn’t want generally every mealtime. At school he uses a knife and fork and eats his hot lunches beautifully.

I think you need to first of all chill a little bit. Nothing sounds that awful. Yes he is being wilful and rude. Yes he is being destructive and defiant, but it’s all the more mild end of the scale and he is able to control his behaviour at school.

You say he is a middle child? Wedged between two well behaved girls by any chance? I think it’s very easy to catastrophise poor behaviour in comparison to close siblings who are doing as they are told.

My advice is to be consistent and give consequences, not punishment. If he is a physical child then find ways to be physical alongside him. Find stuff that he’s good at and praise him to the rafters. Allow him to mature. Most of this stuff will start to even put by the time they are eight.

Thanks for the reply. His older sister is 7 and I’dstrong willed, defiant and pushes every boundary. I’m under no illusion, I know she’s no angel, especially compared to some of her friends but she is a good girl when I need her to be although not without drama. My youngest is a 2 year old boy with older siblings to teach him all the tricks and I need say no more 😂

I feel like hurting his brother and sister enough to leave them screaming and with physical marks wouldn’t be helped by me chilling out. He draws all over walls/tables and has smashed a tv. But I have no experience of young boys, I don’t have a brother or anything I can draw experience from so I can’t possibly say how extreme it is. I only know that every day there’s conflict and im exhausted with it.

Thanks for the advice, I’ll definitely take it on board 🙌🤞🏼

It sounds like my child, but honestly it will get better. My child has a (now) angelic older sibling who was also extremely wilful and stubborn at the same age.

The key is to stay calm and consistent with boundaries. Don’t shout and throw punishments about, it’s only makes things worse.

Do you think he may have additional needs? I mean, instinctively? What was he like meeting milestones other than speech? Does he interact with other children? We had some similar problems with DC1 around age 5/6 in particular - physical violence at home but perfect behaviour at school, very poor impulse control at home, for example. We are now fairly sure he’s autistic (looking into diagnosis).

I think the pressure of school meant he kept a lid on everything until he came home and let it all, quite literally, hang out. Does any of that resonate with you?

I mean, he could just be a very full on 5 year old - but I think this level of violence may suggest more is going on, and my experience is school aren’t interested if they’re not disruptive and/or not meeting milestones (good to see he has some support at school).

You’ve just described him/it in a nutshell, what you’ve said absolutely resonates.
He was behind with every milestone. His speech delay was also a language delay in the sense of understanding the world. So around Jan/Feb this year he got a grasp of ‘first and next’ … in a very basic terms ‘first we throw the ball and then the dog catches it’.

He has a friendship group at school but outside of school he won’t interact with other children or go on play equipment where there are other children unless his older sister is there.

The confusing thing is that he’s absolutely fine at school, quite the opposite, but yes it all blows up when he gets home. Which I keep being told is normal but it feels so extreme 🤷🏻‍♀️

Thank you, it’s really good to hear it should pass!

The confusing thing is that he’s absolutely fine at school, quite the opposite, but yes it all blows up when he gets home. Which I keep being told is normal but it feels so extreme
What you are describing is a child who is masking at school and then releasing the pressure at home. His behaviour is not what I would describe as normal.

He sounds just like my autistic (Asperger) son. The reason he behaves like that at home and not at school is that he is putting a massive amount of effort in masking his feelings and impulses at school and then it all explodes when he gets home where he feels safe.

Hang in there!

i think Mumsnet is VERY quick to diagnose ASD.

Ive been told that independent schools are pretty bad at highlighting potential SEND. Obviously you know your child’s school better than we do. Do you think they are equipped to flag up potential SEN?

If you genuinely think he might be on the spectrum then a private diagnosis would be your best bet. My eldest does strike me as being on the spectrum somewhere as he was speech delayed and was flagging up SENCOS with his behaviour from 2. When we went down the official channels before school the specialist said he was neurotypical. I think they were wrong as he has some funny quirks which mark him as different, but he manages things well and is exceeding academically. So I’m not concerned.

No and my gut feeling is it’s not quite right. So what do I do?! 😩

Can you start with your GP and ask for a referral for assessment?

I wouldn’t be trying to approach this through non-private channels. You will not get a diagnosis that route. You need to throw some money at it.

First of all - you sound like a lovely, caring mum.

It does sound like masking. One thing jumps out at me - he struggles with the idea of elves reporting back. Some kids - ND and NT - really don't respond to threats/bribery/reward/punishments. It just makes them more anxious and more obnoxious.

It might be worth scaling that back. I don't mean letting everything slide (some things like violence to siblings you obviously can't). I mean ditching the elves, and reward charts and anything optional.

I’m just not really sure. Am I expecting too much of a child who’s just a bit delayed and frustrated or is there more to it?

I knew he had a speech delay when he was about 2.5 and got a referral from nhs but after waiting a year to be seen for his second appt (private was also a nightmare) he was signed off as not needing it!!! I knew this was wrong but when he started reception 2 months later they had already flagged it on his assessment day and arranged for a speech and language therapist to come into school once per week to work with him and a few others. So the for whole of reception year he had a session per week with her plus 2 with the TAs doing the work she set. He now sees her once per half term.

There is a SEN Dr permanently at school working with a small number of children. She opened a file for him when he started and has assessed him 3 times now. The file is there in case he hasnt caught up by 7 but no concern and they just don’t believe me about his behaviour at home because he’s that much of an angel at school.

Thank you that’s really kind.

I hoped the elves might help just make him a little more aware of himself but they are making things worse I’d say. I’ve been hoping he’d do something good so they could massively reward him but there’s been nothing since the 1st 😩 other than he saw his sister had cut her finger in school yesterday and came running out of the gate to check she was ok. Which was sweet.

I’ll definitely take your advice and try scaling back so I only deal with what is a real issue. I do turn a blind eye to some of the normal sibling bickering/scraps because that’s just exhausting and they need to learn to sort that out between themselves.

Being good all day in school and exploding the second they get out is classic masking. If you are able to afford private school, I would hope that you could afford private assessment too. Go somewhere that offers general screening for then picking out the right sorts of assessment. I have seen educational psychologists being recommended on here as a good starting point.

I would also look at lowering the demands made on him at home. Does it really matter if he touches an elf? Engage him before dinner instead of expecting him to eat something he doesn't like. Don't have a sweet cupboard in the house, just buy what pudding or treats you want on the day. Every time he calls you names, tell him you love him too. Then really mean it on the violence and calmly take him away from the situation every time he lashes out.

Some of this sounds like a release after masking, some like he is looking for attention and some like you are expecting a behavior level of a developmentally average child. But if you look at him as having the impulsively and reasoning of a 3 year old, it does show you might be expecting too much.

The most important thing is that you clearly care and want to help him. Assessment, even if it just rules out neurodiversity, should help you understand the situation and how to get the best for him.

I'm wondering if there is any mileage in teaching him how to deal with "big feelings" at a point when he is not actually feeling them. Things like sensory toys, fidget squishies, calming books special "safe space" chair or cushions. Then when he is struggling with behaviour, take him to the safe space and support him with calming down rather than moving him outside where he is effectively having to deal with feelings alone that he wasn't coping with anyway.

This is great practical advice I can start straight away thank you. Just to say, when I put him outside I literally leave him for a few seconds as it breaks my heart 😩

This sound like my son also 5 angel at school but at home he cannot keep his hands off his sister or brother he's my wildest child out of them all and doesn't do well with instructions to clean etc. very much I want this and I want it my way but ignoring has helped me alot as taking
Things doesn't work he will just take a nap

Also my child had speech delay till about 4. He will make friends at school but won't think of approaching anyone outside of school total opposite to my oldest son he was quiet and wouldn't even speak to teachers he's passed that now and is finally growing into himself

Have you come across any books/ websites etc on therapeutic parenting? You might find some of their ideas helpful. They are approaches used often by parents who have neurodiverse children or children who have experienced trauma although I don't think children need to be in these categories to benefit from some of the approaches

They are based round the principle that the child isn't just being deliberately naughty for the sake of it but is experiencing some kind of overwhelming feeling that they can't manage.

One strand is about naming feelings as you have already been doing. Another strand is about co-regulation coming before self - regulation, so staying with the child and supporting them to regulate their feelings before they will be able to manage it on their own.

In the example you gave of your son calling you names because he couldn't walk as fast, rather than reacting to his insults, it might look like saying "Wow it sounds like you've got some really big feelings going on there. I wonder if it is because you aren't going as fast as dad/sister." Sometimes just being acknowledged and having someone agree that it sucks that your legs aren't long enough yet is enough.
If that doesn't help you could continue with "What can we do to express those feelings without upsetting anyone. Maybe we could stomp them out?" Then you can mess around doing silly stomping walks etc, and that might help.
If not, then just still being the calm presence saying "I know that you are having big feelings. Hmm sometimes being mean to others might make you feel a bit better but it does tend to upset people and hurt their feelings. If you want some other ideas of how to manage the big feelings let me know" and continue to be a firm calm presence.

Having a safe space where they can retreat to can also be helpful. Sometimes, especially if they have been working really hard to comply with demands all day at school, just having another child too much "in their face" can be a flash-point. Having a calm space where they can retreat to and use whatever sensory toys they enjoy can be really helpful. They need an adult to be with them helping them to co-regulate and engage with the calming techniques to begin with. They may then be able in time to use the tools and techniques independently.

I sometimes find, when a child is really out of control emotionally, just sitting alongside and calmly reading a book that they enjoy really helps. It gives them something else to focus on while the feelings subside.

Of course it is important to still address the issue - eg that they have hurt a sibling but wait until they are calm and then try and work together to find a way to "show sorry" to the hurt child. Therapeutic parenting says it is better to "show sorry" rather than say sorry. This might be finding a favourite toy or cuddly for the hurt child to have, helping to put cream on a physical injury etc.

If you are on Facebook, there is a good therapeutic parenting group you could join.

Have you looked at PDA (pathological demand avoidance) it can sit alongside Autism as a SEND diagnosis. I am not qualified in anyway to diagnose him obviously, but some of what you describe sounds like PDA; but I would suggest (as others have) that you get him assessed privately if necessary so you can rule additional needs out of the equation and move forward with things one way or another.

Interesting that a previous poster has mentioned Aspergers.
The contradictory behaviour between school and home was identical to my experience when my son was young (he's 35 now!). School were convinced we were discussing different children on parents evening. Perfect at school. Monster at home. There is a positive.....school said it means he feels comfortable at home so can display as he knows he will be loved. But very hard at home. I would investigate possible autistic traits.

You've described speech and language issues, possible sensory issues, impulsive behaviour, social challenges and difficulties with emotional regulation - I would look into an autism assessment if I were you. For behaviour I find redirection works well for my 4yo who also has some SEN. So if he's throwing food I give him a "no thank you" plate. If he's throwing toys I say "we only throw balls" and give him some soft balls. Squashing his brother's head could be redirected to a cushion or being wrapped up like a burrito himself. If you know certain times are tricky e.g. the time between school and dinner then I keep certain activities for that time like kinetic sand or that's when he gets screen time depending on how the day is going.