Really struggling

[Cheesytoaster]

I am extremely exhausted and run down. My LO (who is 14 months) has been waking up frequently about 3/5 times at night for the past 10 weeks. Ever since he started nursery at the end of Aug, his bedtime has been horrendous. I’m at a complete loss on what to do, every night my anxiety is rocket high and I can’t relax because I often wait until he wakes up crying and screaming.
My husband has been seeing to him more when he wakes up due to me being so run down and unwell.

We rock him to sleep because every time we tried to ‘sleep train’ using the Ferber method, he would be hysterical and end up being sick from crying and coughing so much.

He used to be a good sleeper and I just don’t know what has happened. We haven’t changed our routine - we had a routine since he was 6 weeks old.

I really don’t know what to do and don’t know why this has been ongoing for so long…

I’m really, really struggling.

I think he’s hungry- I fed my eldest a meal when they got home from nursery- they ate dinner there at 3.30pm, smaller than home portions and if they didn’t eat it and all o gave them was a bottle they would have been ravenous all night.

We used to feed him when he came home from nursery. We stopped this a few weeks ago because he would wake up in the middle of the night and just throw it all back up. Other mums suggested he was too full so we stopped and he stopped being sick. It was only recently we started offering him some snacks before his bedtime bottle.

That sounds so difficult and exhausting. In some ways it sounds similar to my son.. needs to held to sleep, when he wakes up will only go back to sleep with a cuddle. From reading everything you've said and tried, I really think it's related to separation anxiety and the sleep training. Many people won't agree but sleep training can cause more harm than good, particularly if it's not successful and you obviously had to stop early because it was making him so upset and sick. He's probably subconsciously traumatised by what he would have felt was a horrible experience resulting in sickness and when waking up now he's so scared he'll be left to cry it makes him more upset. I think the only solution for now is to keep being there for him to reassure him night after night that you'll be there when he needs you. He's still so young and developmentally it's completely normal he needs you and needs to know he's not alone. Whilst really difficult for you, his sleep pattern is quite normal for his age and it will get better in time.

LO woke up at 3:05am, bought him in to co-sleep and he was just thrashing around for about an hour. Took him back into his room and he has been inconsolable since. We have given him teething powder and calpol and currently sat in bed with 'In The Night Garden' on. He's still balling his eyes out.

I'm not sure what the fuck I am doing wrong.

This sounds bloody hard OP. You have my sympathies, DS1 had sleep regression at 18 months and it was killer. But nowhere near as bad as you’re having it (and he just grew out of it).

At this stage I would push for a GP referral to a sleep consultant. If the GP won’t do it, see if the health visitor can - the health visitor is supposed to be a resource for you until your child is 5.

Sleep consultants have been revolutionary for a few friends who have had similar issues to your child - won’t go to sleep for hours, repeated wakings, resistance to all methods of training, very needy at night but totally unclear what they want.

Good luck 💐

Hugs. It feels so awful when you don't know what the hell is wrong. It really isn't your fault, and it will get better. I promise.

The back arching suggests to me he is either very tired or in pain. Or hungry.

The throwing up at night you were having before is quite unusual. I doubt it's because he was too full unless he was having an awful lot, really late.

Could it be hunger combined with some kind of food intolerance? What were you previously feeding him in the evenings?

Is there room for a fold out mattress or a small bed in his room? Or possibly even a floor bed?
we have a single bed in my toddlers room which we’ve always had since birth so one of us got decent sleep in the main bedroom.
we now use it when he’s really ill to keep a closer eye on him in his cot and at bedtimes and early hour wakes.
he fidgets too much when trying to go to sleep so we can’t hold him but at the same time he really does not like us just leaving his room to fall asleep so whoever is doing bedtime lies on the single bed until he does. Same with early wake ups. If he lets out a cry and needs comforting, we resettle and stay in the bed next to him so he’s not alone but we all still keep our own sleep space.
it did take a while for him to trust we were there and not just going to leave as soon as we put him in the cot and some nights when he’s super overtired and just can’t drop off by himself and needs to be held it obviously doesn’t work but at least we have a bed to lie on instead of standing or in a seat.
same thing with a floor bed. If he hates the cot maybe you could childproof the room for a floor bed that would also have room for you to fit in next to him when needed.

I thought the newborn stage was bad, this is brutal! Especially now I am back to work

My health visitor called the other day to see how everything was and I explained to her about my LO's sleep. She has booked an appointment for me to have an assessment. To be honest, and without trying to sound pessimistic, I don't think it's going to work. I've exhausted all resources, methods, techniques, tips and tricks and nothing seems to be working. Is this now my life? Is there something I am doing wrong?? Is it just my LO that is like this? It has been 11 weeks and it seems to be getting worse. Someone tell me where I am going wrong, please.

(I have occasionally when all else failed put my head under the pillow and slept through the crying.... it got better...)

Majority of the time, he will settle and fall asleep within a minute when we go to pick him up but recently it has been a big battle. We haven't given him a midnight bottle since he was about 3 months old so I'm really not sure if it's hunger or something else. Could be teething pain? When I went to put teething powder in his mouth, I tried to feel if his molars are coming through and might've possibly felt a little bump? Could be wrong as it was hard to see.

I don't think he has any food intolerance. He's had dairy and nuts since 6 months. Spoke to the doctor about it and they weren't concerned either. I put him on lactose free milk and made no difference to his poo or sleep (poo is like a mushy texture, not solid. Has been like this since, I guess when he started nursery).

He has his last meal at nursery at 3:30pm which is usually afternoon tea and consists of toast, DIY sandwiches, crackers, vegetable crudités and a dessert which he usually devours. We would then top him up with porridge then his bedtime milk an hour later. Would you say that is a lot?

Yeah there is but I highly doubt it will make any difference. He wakes up as soon as he is in his cot regardless whether he can see us or not. He will instantly sit up waiting for us to pick him up for a cuddle. Majority of the time he is fine but when he's not, he will make it known that he does not want to be held. But also doesn't want to be in his cot. I have looked at floor beds and honestly don't think it will make a difference at all. He doesn't want to co-sleep and he doesn't want to be in his cot. I've sat there with him in his cot and he just sat up crying inconsolably. Maybe it's me? Maybe he hates me.

I wish I could do that but he will just end up making himself sick. Or throw himself back that he hits the cot and cries inconsolable. There's no in-between.

Depends how much porridge I guess! Since mine started solids they have eaten a full meal at around 5:30 plus (at that age) bedtime milk at 7.

It could always be teething pain! I wasn't convinced teething powder did anything but you are giving calpol which ought to help.

Tbh it's probably a hideous mishmash of something actually wrong plus the overtiredness it is causing plus the fact he has gotten kind of used to you popping in all the time.

Hard to unpick but first try to eliminate all possible real issues (as you are doing)

If he’s waking up as early as midnight as opposed to always early hours then no I would suspect it’s not hunger. Especially if he is at least getting something before bedtime and milk.
there is something called temporary secondary lactose intolerance that you can develop after a bad tummy bug and takes cutting out dairy for at least two months to allow the gut to heal. Cow’s milk protein allergy is also different to lactose intolerance btw and lacto free milk and cheese will not be enough for cmpa but if he’s been fine on dairy before then I doubt it’s cmpa too.
we do find with my toddler if he’s eaten something particularly rich at nursery then we get a lot more early wakes, as the digestive system loves to become active in those early hours so it could be that.
digestive discomfort, getting used to nursery food whilst also coping with teething, illnesses, overtiredness etc
I do remember a particularly trying phase of sleep around 14-16 months. He’d arch his back and scream even when held until he passed wind and then would calm down.
once I’d ticked everything off like blackout blinds, ocean white noise, right temp etc. I accepted that it was obviously something out of my control and the best thing I could do was be there for him and comfort.
btw mine is also one who thinks he wants cuddles but doesn’t, wants to be held but doesn’t and that’s when I decided to utilise the single bed more so I could be there for him without interfering so much.

Poor kid sounds like he’s suffering with illness and reflux. When my DS (who has slept through the night on and off since 9 months) is ill, he wakes at least once in the night for milk and cuddles. He’s over 2 years old now but still likes a nighttime feed when poorly (I still breastfeed). He’s otherwise a pretty good sleeper - illness is definitely a factor in waking frequently.

The sleep consultant we spoke to when we were having problems with our first (who was a terrible sleeper) would almost certainly say it’s to do with how you’re getting him to sleep that is the issue. Every time he wakes he is reliant on being rocked back to sleep. Putting him down in the cot and then encouraging him to eventually lie down by himself was what we were told to do. Patting the mattress and saying ‘sleep time’ until they figured it out. Did it work? Kind of. sleep definitely improved, although I think we just have a more wakeful and sensitive child! It did save me from endless rocking though, as we could cuddle in a chair then move to cot. I’d still sit by the cot and stroke a hand or head though.

i would knock tV on the head in the early mornings too. That can definitely stimulate them to wake up regularly. The same sleep consultant told us to stick to screen time in the middle of the day (and not at all at this age). We still stick to this now for us all - much better for sleep!

You can develop a food allergy or intolerance at age. In children a delayed cows milk protein allergy is more common than a lactose intolerance. The symptoms are similar and mostly gastric. Lactose free products only have the milk protein removed so if they are allergic to proteins they will continue to react to lactose free products.
Delayed allergies can have a gap of 3 days between ingestion and symptoms and it can take 2-6 weeks for the gut to heal after removing the allergen so you need to test the allergy free milk for at least this period of time to rule it out. About 50% of children that are allergic to dairy are also allergic to soya so it is not recommended that you use soya dairy replacement products such as milk and yoghurt during this test period. You don't need to worry about soya in other products just don't switch from dairy to equal amounts of a different allergen

Did you try giving him a bottle when he woke up at 3? If not, why not? It would rule out if the lack of sleep is related to hunger issues?

with kindness, do you KNOW that he’s eating that 3:30 meal in full at nursery? Our DD picks at anything like sandwiches but I wouldn’t say sandwiches, toast & crackers are a good substitute for a decent meal in the evening to keep him full through till morning. Surely he should be having something at tea time too? (Not just porridge).

is there a chance you could have got into the habit of equalling food intake with being sick so you’re worried about overfilling him? It sounds like you may need to try and get to the bottom of any sickness in itself, rather then just not feeding or not giving a bottle when he wakes up, but don’t just rule out the possibility that he may be hungry when he wakes up at 3am.

out of interest, why did you stop giving an overnight bottle at 3 months? Was there a reason for that?

My LO did so well when he started solids. There's been a few times where he would refuse his lunch/dinner and I'm guessing it's down to teething or when he's ill but generally, he does well on the food front. Similarly to you, he has his dinner around 5pm, then we go for a walk to wind down then it's bathtime. His bottle will be around 6:45pm.

I went to boots today to buy Anbesol - a bit against it knowing the active ingredient is a numbing agent that dentists use on adults! But it's made for children. I also think the fact that I'm using teething powder more than once and on top of that giving him calpol/nurofen... that's a lot of medicine. I don't know how or if these medication actually work but he did calm down eventually by 5am today after having teething powder and nurofen. Then it was up at 7:30am! I. Am. Knackered!!!

I've tried and tried and tried and I just can't seem to solve whatever is happening. I can't begin to tell you how useless I feel.

When he woke up this morning at 3am, we bought him into our room to try and co-sleep it didn't go to plan. He kept thrashing, sitting up and throwing himself back. Cuddles for a few seconds and then wriggled down the bed and repeated said above. Husband then took him back to his room and he just had a complete meltdown for 2 hours. We gave hjm teething powder and calpol and eventually settled in bed with us at 5am before then getting up at 7:30am! His mood has been surprisingly fine, he's currently at my best friend's house and she said he's been brilliant!
Doctor doesn't think it's cmpa, he loves cheese and yoghurt. Took to formula and cows milk absolutely fine. I tried giving lactose free milk to see if it would make a different - it did not.
We get updates at nursery on their day and the food is always freshly cooked (one of the reasons we chose this nursery) but it's food he will have at home as well ie. Pasta, toast, fruit etc. he has been passing wind more than usual and tbh, I don't know if I see much difference - probably because I'm so tired that everything is a blur currently. We make sure we burp him after his bedtime bottle as well. He has blackout blinds, white noise, dim light, calpol plug, nice warm room, comfortable clothes... you name it. I've looked at floor beds as well but I wonder if he's not sleeping in bed with us, what makes me think he would sleep on the floor bed.

Gosh I just want to cry and scream.

@Superscientist I have spoken to my gp about this and they don't think it's any form of allergies. Do you think I should get their advice first before cutting anything out? I don't want to just cut his dairy intake out completely. I have an appointment with my health visitor in 2 weeks who is also a sleep nurse for an assessment on his sleep.

@sandyhappypeople I haven't offered him a bottle at 3, no. Our gut instant suggested that he was in pain from teething, not hunger. However, I might try this tonight if he decided to wake up and see what happens. I'm willing to try anything now, this is so exhausting.

Well no, I don't know unless I'm physically there to see him eat so I can only go by the updates nursery provide me. They will say whether he had eaten all his food, most or some and offer alternative if he completely refuses. How much of it he actually eats, I don't know but I doubt they will lie to me. If he's been to nursery, he will have porridge or a snack. We tried a proper meal and he would eat it then throw it back up from waking up. There's been a couple of occasions where he had kept it down but it's been out more than in. When he is at home, he has 3 meal a day plus snacks in-between. All cooked from scratch. Sometimes he would leave some of his milk and other times he will smash through it.
The other night, he threw up his lunch, dinner and milk and we knew that was sickness. Other times, he would throw up just his porridge. When he is sick, we give him more bland foods. When he wakes up, we go to him and give him a cuddle and he will settle but as soon as we put him back down, he's screaming and crying again. It's almost like he wants us but doesn't want us. He worries me the most when he arches his back because I don't want him to hurt himself! His safety is my priority but whatever I am doing doesn't seem to be working.

I didn't stop feeding him at 3months, he started sleeping through at 3months. The newborn stage was brutal for me - we had to feed him on the clock for a certain period of time rather than on demand due to his weight when he was born. But around the 3/4month mark, he started sleeping through and midwife/HV said it was fine so we took their advice.

Gps don't get training on allergies and there knowledge is very poor.

My GP told me categorically that my daughter didn't have allergies as she would be in hospital. True for lactose intolerance in breastfed babies not true for cows milk protein allergies. Fast forward 6 months and we identified 10 foods my daughter was allergic too and reacting through my breastmilk. The same gp praised me for figuring it out without support. My daughter now has 20 confirmed allergies. I have so many stories from friend that have had similar experiences. One is really good as pushing policy is working on getting it included in the GP training

For delayed allergies the only way to know one way of the other is to take the food out of their diet for 3-6 weeks then do a controlled test by giving some of the food you have removed a glass of milk and then if that's ok try pointing back in the diet and seeing if symptoms reappear.

I think you should try the bottle at night, I really think it may be that the things he’s eating at nursery (or the amounts) just aren’t keeping him full enough, they only have x amount of people to x amount of children and x amount of time, so while I don’t think they’re lying about what he’s having, it’s not as thorough as feeding your own child, also toast and sandwiches is very carb heavy so may not be the sort of food that would necessarily keep him feeling full. you said you’ve gone from having a dinner at 5pm & bottle at bedtime, with him sleeping well, to an unknown amount of nursery food at 3:30 as substitute for a dinner and him not sleeping well at all, it may not be a coincidence?

if the bottle settles him at night and you can cuddle him back to sleep for a bit then you at least know that he IS hungry at that time and can switch your routine to accommodate it, you say your gut told you he was in pain last night, he could well be, but that doesn’t mean he’s not hungry as well, if you’re worried about making a rod for your own back, don’t be, if it means getting up once in the night to top him up with a bottle for a little while, isn’t that preferable to a little one who is up at early hours o clock and won’t go back to sleep?

@Superscientist this is really interesting. Would it be worth going to a nutritionist or a specialist who could advise me on this? He has such a varied diet that I wouldn't even know where to begin. I'm so desperate that I will try anything. He has already woken up once already, and I fear there's plenty more of this to come tonight.. my anxiety is sky high atm.

@sandyhappypeople he has already woken up once already and I know it can't be down to hunger as he finished his dinner tonight. He didn't finish his bedtime milk and I didn't want to force it on him as he voluntarily came off the bottle.
We used Anbesol, a new teething treatment tonight as we usually use Ashton & Parson and it seems that has made no difference as he has already woken up. I'll try giving him some milk if he wakes up around 2/3am and see if that makes a difference. Willing to try anything to see what the cause is. I am so, so exhausted and desperate that I just don't think I can do this anymore.
Ticking off each and every possible solution to try and find the root cause... what am I doing wrong?!