Nearly on hour 3 of this tantrum! Help!

[fuckingparenting]

My 4 year old is a nightmare every single bed time, he drags the whole process out for hours, fights us, shouts and screams and cries refuses to get dressed, brush his teeth, get into bed etc. He'll pick different things each night but each night is an absolute battle. He eventually gives up and cuddles up and has his stories. I'm so fed up of bed time being so horrible every night, it's draining so tonight I said that because he's spent 1.5 hours screaming, crying, throwing things, taking his clothes off, fighting me etc that he's now used all of his story time up. Because he can't keep doing this and then still getting all of his stories because there's nothing putting him off the nightly carnage

Except now there's been 1.5 hours of him begging for his stories, crying, pleading, asking nicely, getting angry and lashing out, more screaming, crying. I know if I back down and say you can have them it'll be done and I don't want to make battles unnecessarily but I can't bloody back down now. And I can't do this every night either. What do I do? Do I back down or perservere?

Oh OP. Persevere I think?

can you think of a compromise that isn’t giving in. Eg if he gets into bed you’ll sing him a song or he can listen to some music?

and then get in touch with Anne tomorrow. She’s amazing. Not like other sleep trainers https://nurturingsleep.co.uk/

Would some kind of positive reinforcement/reward work? So if he goes to bed every night for a week (with a sticker chart) he gets a trip to the toy shop to pick a toy? Or something like that?

I think sometimes you obviously have to take a tough line but other times, positive rewards like this can really work.

Sorry you're going through such an exhausting time.

Is he overtired by the time you start bedtime? Have you tried making it earlier or later?

I don't think that you can give in on the stories tonight but maybe snuggle in with him. We have a tradition of 3 stories a night. If she is mucking around downstairs delaying bedtime I will tell her that is fine if you want to do extra things down here before you go up to bed, but remember that we won't have time for as many stories upstairs. So you need to choose whether to do this or have your stories. Thus she is warned about the consequences and has an illusion of free choice. She has only ever chosen to stay downstairs a handful of times and the first couple she was really pissed off when I held to my guns and she got one or no stories. Sometimes I have docked a story for mucking about upstairs putting PJs on etc. She knows the score now though and will make her choice without a murmur.

What would happen if you just stopped and gave him a cuddle and just say quietly for a bit? Or if you simply back off, leaving him in his room, and just go and sit down and ignore him for a while? Trying to reason with an angry person is like trying to sweep sand off the beach. Calm, reset, and try again.

Tomorrow, have a think about how you're phrasing the requests or demands and see if he'll be more willing if they're asked in a different way.

This is what we do but he goes so nuts if you say he's used up 1 or 2 stories worth of time that he ends up screaming crying hysterically and can't actually get him into bed, he will literally say give me all of my stories and I'll lie down. He can be a blooming nightmare he's relentless and will just keep on going in the hopes he'll get his way

He has eventually cried himself to sleep! Feel awful but hoping tomorrow when he starts the usual crap we can say you didn't get to have any stories last night and we don't want that to happen again and he'll co-operate. Though I doubt it!

I agree that at some point you need to stick to your guns and whenever you do that will be an awful evening but hopefully also a turning point- so you’ve got this far you might as well ride it out. No bedtime story but if he is hysterical he probably needs a cuddle and tucking up?

I think when small children are behaving in a way that looks irrational to us, it’s worth trying to work out how it looks from their end.

Rewards are great if you are pushing at an open door- if there is something blocking him approaching bedtime calmly you will need a work around first. Even high value rewards won’t work if what he is getting from the situation now is either what he really actually wants eg attention or avoiding some sort of anxiety about going to sleep.

if you are going to approach this as a new start , particularly if he is anxious, could you maybe move his room around, think about nightlights or story tapes to fall asleep to etc. What’s he like the rest of the day?

Sorry took so long typing that out I see he fell asleep before I’d finished!

What consequences do you give him when he behaves this way?

It's tough, but at 4 you have a choice of avoiding battles or standing your ground. Don't give in!

You could get tweaking other things during the day to get and making things smoother - do you suspect he is over/under tired? Is he getting enough outdoor exercise? Enough 1:1 attention/afection? An appropriate level of control in his day? Just some things to think about.

But fundamentally inthink you do need to just stand your ground. If he has lost stories, then tough. He gets the one read to him and then you leave the room. If he screams you can pop back at gradually increasingintervals, remind him that you love him and ask if he is ready for a cuddle. But fundamentally you have to let him scream.... he needs to know that you love him, and you mean what you say. He's not a baby, so he will understand what is going on.

Speaking as a veteran of 3 hour bedtimes:

can you chat about it in the daytime? If he’s four he might be able to explain why he hates going to bed so much? Sometimes thou can even ask what he suggest you do when he melts down like this?

if there are definitely no special needs then hopefully you have made an important point all round in persevering, but if you suspect there is some real anxiety or issues of Sen (adhd or autism) going on then you may have to learn to back down if you have put an unreasonable expectation on him. My DS would escalate and escalate and then he would be too far gone to deal with the consequences. What I learned then was that consequences and talk about what went wrong can be saved until a calmer time.

it could be a really simple reason he hasn’t explained to you?

In the past, I've told my daughter that if she doesn't get her teeth brushed then no stories. This resulted in tantrums but I held firm. I did say we can have a chat about our day, just no stories. Although negotiating can take 40 mins until.i maje the decision for her!
More recently I have resorted to a bedtime reward chart which has also worked really well.
Bed time in our house can be 2 to 2.5 hours but with the reward chart it's getting a bit more streamlined and a bit quicker and happier.

What time are you starting bedtime, is he tired enough? My 3.5 year old doesn't go up for his bath until 7pm and is asleep by 7:45, any earlier and he's wide awake and messing about for quite a while

I think by the time a child has been screaming and pleading for 3 hours they’re in no fit state to understand consequences.

My approach would be to take a step back and try to figure out why bedtimes are so fraught, this is way beyond a bit of naughtiness and foot dragging. Is it separation anxiety around you leaving him at bedtime? 4 is still young and he may not be able to articulate genuine fears.

Not sure all the ‘stick to your guns’ advice will actually solve this for you. Need to remember that all behaviour is an attempt at communication.

So sorry - this isn't my thread. I feel your pain though, hence why I'm posting about my own difficult 4 year old.

Can you a little calming walk round the block before bed?

What about a pictorial routine chart, so he knows exactly what step is next?

Solidarity, it sounds stressful!

Just wondering how things are going/ went tonight.

Return him to bed each time he's up or has a tantrum and then leave.
Initially say 'it's time for bed' but each time after that don't engage AT ALL and just leave.
It might take quite a few times. Or loads and loads...😩

What I learnt on ds4 was to have a "story train". The story train is the bed and if you don't get on the bed dressed in pj's with teeth brushed the story train departs, sometimes with a countdown timer (train departing in 10, 9, 8....) Sometimes mummy is rushing to get on the train and I have to indianna Jones style run across the room to get on the bed before it "departs". I actually find ds really loves me saying oh please dont let the train go without me and he rushes off to get on the bed first. Generally we are having a bit of a giggle to see who's going to get left behind and we have a bit of fun and it puts bed being a positive place.

On bad nights when ds is in a mood I have often headed upstairs and started the story if ds is dilly-dallying and if he doesn't get up quick he will miss the start of story but if that did happen I'd usually restart. It took me until my 4th child to find this bedtime that works for us without fail.

I agree with this. From the OP, you’ve added an extra hour and half to bedtime by refusing to read stories. Some kids don’t understand consequences at that age (mine didn’t - she has ASD). It’s not ‘giving in’, it’s taking control of the situation and diffusing it. Otherwise it’s lose lose all round.

What about colouring segments of the clock so he can see? 6.30-6.45 bath time 6.45-6.50 teeth brush 6.50-7 get dressed for bed 7-15 stories 715-7.25 cuddles 7.25-7.30 light out? That way he can see he is wasting his time? No idea if it would work?!

Is this the same 4 year old from a previous post that has been watching TV all day?

Apologies if not.

Can you flip it round?
he has a standard story for bed.
brushing teeth sensibly earns an extra.
getting changed before the timer goes- + 1.
you might end up reading more stories, but worth it to have positive time.