Advice needed re. traumatic nursery drop offs

[EezyOozy]

Hi,

I would appreciate any advice please as I'm quite upset at what happened this morning.

I have 2 DD's - one is 5 and is p1 (Scotland), no issues, skips in happily etc. One is 4 and in the school nursery. Completely different child, wears her heart on her sleeve and has separation anxiety. This is her 2nd year at the nursery.

Throughout year 1 we had regular difficult drop offs although no consistently bad. She is always fine at pick up and appears to have had a nice time. There were two teachers (small village school) in the nursery my DD's first year - one very experienced older lady, totally calm and consistent, and another younger lady. Last year I ended up doing fairly gentle drop offs eg going in for a few minutes (most parents do), helping wash hands and then giving a hug goodbye. Sometimes this was okay, but often my DD would start to get upset. I tried to make a "clean break" and just leave, and the younger of the two teachers would always give her a hug until settled. We did at one point try sticker charts with limited success.

This year there is a large influx (for our area) of 3 year olds and the older teacher is off on the long term sick. So we have the younger teacher and supply teachers that seem to differ daily. It is busier than ever at morning drop off. I drop my DD off at the same time each day, after dropping my older DD at school (the buildings are next door to one another). DD has had a huge hysterical meltdown every morning so far (my kids went back last week). The younger teacher is now in charge and has been saying how she is making a few changes to how things run now that the older teacher is not there.... she also seems to have changed her attitude to my DD. I imagine she is quite stressed in her role at the moment.

Yesterday when I dropped off DD she was very tearful, begging me not to leave and hanging on to me. The teacher was very stern with her and said things like "this is a lot of nonsense, there is nothing wrong with you at all!"..."She is just putting it on!" etc. When it came time for me to leave my DD had to be peeled off me and I could hear her crying (a lot) as I left the grounds. When I picked her up the teacher told me that "we are now taking a tougher approach! We left her to self settle for 30 mins this morning - I told her I wasn't going to read to her or play with her until she calmed down."

Last night DD was inconsolable at bedtime repeatedly saying she didn't want to go and that the teacher had "shouted" at her after I left. I know that a 4 year olds version of shouting may not have been shouting but stern talking. I asked DD what she "shouted" and DD said "she said STOPPIT STOPPIT".

I decided that this morning at drop off I was going to speak to the teacher and say that we need to make a plan to achieve calmer and more positive drop offs, without dramatic screaming and DD being grabbed off me and carried in. I also wanted to query this new "tough" approach as it was not discussed with me, and I wasn't happy that my DD had been left to cry for 30 mins. Anyway, as soon as we got inside my DD started clinging to my leg, saying that she didn't want me to go. I said "Don't worry - let's get you busy playing with something and I will go and speak to Mrs X about how to make drop offs nicer". Except I didn't really get a chance as Mrs X came over and started saying "come on DD, lets stop this nonsense, it's all put on isn't it?!" and started trying to grab her off me (DD still hanging on to my leg crying). I tried to say "actually I was hoping we could have a chat about this... DD was a bit upset last night.... ". All the while the teacher focusing on DD Being removed from me and speaking to her quite sternly. I'm afraid to say that I interjected "Please can we stop!" and sort of gently raised my arm a bit so that the teacher would stop trying to hold onto DD. It seemed to get very carried away very quickly. I then said that I wanted to discuss trying to have calmer drop offs and could we have a proper meeting.... the teachers response was to again say "there is nothing wrong with her... we need to toughen up... this is all a control thing from DD.... she is smirking behind your back right now". (I looked - she wasn't - I have never seen her smirk). Then teacher said "it's you she is getting this from - you are anxious and you are feeding her behaviour". I pointed out that this has been going on for a while and I have always been positive/distracting on the walk into nursery, have never shown upset or concern to my DD about any of this.

I feel like it turned into a car crash and that the teacher has unilaterally decided to take a particular approach with my DD without this being discussed.

This morning, I ended up staying until DD was a bit calmer and then leaving her with one of the supply teachers who did give her a cuddle. DD started to get worked up again as I left but I really felt that if I didn't leave then I never would.

I called the nursery a short while ago and said we need to have a chat about how to move forward... teacher and I are meeting at 3pm to discuss. This teacher was lovely last year but things seem to have changed... she seems to have decided to ring in the changes and that "enough is enough" and my DD is clearly struggling, having just returned to new teachers, new classmates etc.

I do not know what to say or suggest in this meeting. I know that I want drop offs to become a non-event...as calm and as low key as possible. I understand that hanging about isn't helpful and I do try not to.... but I can't have her dragged off me wailing and then left to "self settle" for 30 mins.... and then crying at bedtime that she doesn't want to go.

I was going to come on and suggest that maybe you get her dad to drop her off, and do short and sharp. Mine were always distraught when I dropped them off but were fine with my husband.

However, oh my goodness that is terrible!!! I just can't comprehend a teacher, a person who wants to work with kids, leaving a child to sob. No wonder she doesn't want to go, that teacher is horrible! That's probably worth a conversation with the head.
Apparently I went through a phase of similar, but when I was a couple of years older, and they tried all sorts, including subbing the assistant head in as the class teacher, because they wanted the kids at the school to be happy going in. What she is doing just sounds cruel, and not right, and definitely worth escalating.

Do you talk to any of the other parents?

Realistically what approach do you want them to take? You staying in the class is not helpful for her or the other children. At my DS Nursery parents weren't even allowed in and had to drop off at the door which worked well. Children focused on taking their coat off and putting it in the peg and these were 3 year olds. I would say you being in the classroom is not working for the teacher and yes she is likely becoming frustrated at you. You child has already been there a year and not settled by now. I have seen that the more a parent fusses and stays about the longer it takes a child to settle in the classroom. The teacher will likely want you to drop her off at the door and go and yes she may be upset for a day or two but you'll find in the long run she will settle more quickly each time until it becomes a non event. My DS would get upset going into daycare at 2 and I found a quick kiss and bye and the staff distracted him and he was fine in a few minutes. Could your partner or grandparents drop her for a few weeks if you find it too difficult?

Thanks so much for responding. The thing is this teacher was so lovely last year . She seems to have decided to make changes and, (maybe) since my DD is one of the older kids in the setting now , she shouldn’t be mollycoddled.

another mum caught me crying on the walk home and asked if I was okay etc , I told her everything. She was basically in agreement with me and wondered if the dynamic has changed this year , and said things like “trust your gut”. The older children all seem find at drop off (except one or two of the littlest ones who are getting plenty of cuddles etc).

I don’t want be “that parent” and I don’t want to make DDs separation anxiety worse in any way… but my gut instinct is that this is not right.

Could your partner or grandparents drop her for a few weeks if you find it too difficult?

no this wouldn’t be possible.

as I have said , most of the parents go in for a couple of minutes . It’s not just me. I have also acknowledged that I need to / try to get away as quickly as I can.

what do I want them to do? Well that’s why I am asking her for advice !

Here*

I think you need to stop going in. You are prolonging this by going in. Accept that her "separation anxiety" needs to be overcome and the only way to do this is to let school get on with it.

The thing is that all but 1 other parent goes in. DD will wonder why I am not going in when (nearly) all the other parents do. I know my child and think that this will really worsen the morning behaviour.

does “leaving the school to get on with it” mean letting this teacher unilaterally decide what to do, talk sternly too her, accuse her off putting it all on/smirking and tell her that she won’t be played with until she has stopped crying (for half an hour)?

It doesn't sound very nice but I think I would try it her way for a couple of weeks and see how that works out. I would agree with earlier comments that staying a little while can actually prolong the agony for everyone, so it's worth a shot.
And easy enough surely to explain to your daughter that you're all going to be trying a new way of doing things.
The worst outcome is going to be that it doesn't work and you're going to be looking for a new place for your DD elsewhere and presumably much less convenient that the set up now, so it's worth a try.
No I wouldn't be happy at all of this was my DD, is there any truth at all in her comment that she is picking up on your own anxiety? I've always found the hardest part of parenting to be when you have to stay jolly to try and keep them holding it together when inside you feel anything but. Hospital trips/General Anaesthetics were the ones I found most difficult, and always ended up in tears once they had gone under with a nurse giving me a hug.

Thank you for your comments.

is there any truth at all in her comment that she is picking up on your own anxiety?

honestly, no I don’t think so.
I m always very positive when I speak to her about nursery and talk about all
sorts of fun and distracting things en route. This morning we were talking about Halloween decorations.

as I have said I have another daughter that is treated exactly the same and never had any issues.

1. It isn’t normal for you to be crying when walking home over this situation. Are you depressed?
2. You shouldn’t be following your DD into the nursery. You going in is prolonging her pain and likely causing issues with a few of the 3 yo’s who ‘need cuddles’
3. She’s 4. Nearly school age. Are you planning to keep doing this forever? Something is obviously wrong and I suspect you or your dd need medical or psychiatric help.

I was child that had to be peeled off my mother for two terms in reception. Once the teacher took me into the class room I got a cuddle and sat on her knee until I’d calmed down. I wasn’t the only one in the class either.
The trying to make the separation brief does seem to work but I wouldn’t be happy with the left to stop crying on their own as it doesn’t often work with small children. I have sent my two in crying before but thankfully it’s not happened often. They’re cuddled and distracted and then I get an update when they’ve calmed down.
It would be better if the teacher distracted her and got her engaged in an activity quickly as the current tough it out policy is just going to make it all worse and make her anxious about nursery.

Have you tried troubleshooting with her? You sit her down at a different time, on the weekend or something, and say hey I've noticed you get a bit upset when we're heading to nursery, I want you to be happy at nursery, can we think of some things that might help?

And then you and she write down every suggestion that comes out. Even if it's untenable, e.g. she says 'my solution is I don't have to go to nursery any more' you say 'ok cool, let's write that one down. Ok here's an idea, you can take a special teddy in your backpack each day to keep you company'. Then she says 'Mummy stays at nursery all day with me' and you say 'ok let's add that to the list, here's another one, I will draw a heart on your hand every day so you know how much I love you, and you can always press the heart if you ever want to feel close to me' etc etc so on and so forth.

At the end of the exercise you go through the list and discount ones which won't work ('you can't not go to nursery as mummy has to go to work, so let's cross that one off and look at the next idea') and hopefully by the time you've done that, you've reached a couple of ideas which might work and you can try them Monday morning.

The problem solving together is supposed to help them feel like part of the solution, and to understand why some things are possible and some things aren't, and give them back some control of the situation.

I will end this by saying mine is too small to do this kind of exercise with yet but I'm reading a lot of books and this is one strategy I've read...so cannot verify whether it will work but maybe worth a try.

Why are people being so hard on the OP? She needs to be medicated, wtf?

I was also a child who couldn't be peeled off my mum. I hated going to school every day. You absolutely need to ensure DD gets cuddles and distraction once you leave and not left on her own. Children being left to 'calm down' is not appropriate. They need to be taught how to handle their feelings by adults and reassured that everything will be OK.

It sounds like this teacher is either stressed and has become controlling or is trying to make her mark. Either way it's appalling treatment of DD and if continued I'd seriously consider moving DD to another class or school.

@Wenfy, literally none of that is helpful! I’m not depressed. All but one of the parents go in, it’s the norm at this nursery. It’s quite normal to be a bit tearful waking off after something like that! I’m not sobbing my heart out all day everyday.

Thanks @reabies that’s really helpful! I haven’t tried that and will.

Thank you @Givemepickles !! I can assure everyone that I’m a normal parent and DO NOT need psychiatric help!!

Don't worry about being 'that parent' OP, and ignore @Wenfy who's being unnecessarily harsh. Of course it's upsetting when your child is consistently distressed, especially if it's a situation you can't change easily.

Like PP I was also going to say if you can get Dad to do drop-off (this has worked somewhat with my DD, 14months), but I wouldn't be happy about younger teacher's approach, and though I can understand why she might be frustrated, I do think you need to express your concerns with it. She needs a quick bit of firm reassurance from the nursery staff, and immediate distraction with something fun! She should not be left alone to sob.

It's tough when little ones are more sensitive to separation anxiety. It really shouldn't be the case that the nursery allows prolonged drop-offs in any circumstances because it IS recommended to be quick and calm about it, especially with children who are struggling. Gently, I do think you need to take this on board. As hard as it is, you are likely compounding (rather than causing) the issue with prolonged drop offs. Even when other parents are able to do the same, your DD's issue is her difficulty detaching from you. My DD doesn't like pick-up either because suddenly there's a steady stream of adult strangers coming in and it unnerves her. So, other parents your DD doesn't know hanging around at drop-off may be making her anxious too. But that's a problem you should raise with the nursery, as it's their fault for allowing it, not yours.

Has she been able to articulate why it is that she finds it so upsetting when you drop her off? Have you explained why she has to go, or asked her what might make it easier for her? PP's troubleshooting advice is great. Perhaps the lack of control over where she's spending her time is also a problem for her. If she feels more in control, it might help? Does she have friends at the nursery? Maybe you could organise some playdates outside of nursery with kids who attend on her days? If they bond she might be happy to see them at nursery too?

I hope you work it out, OP! Good luck.

Thanks @deliwoman1 . I have asked her what would make it easier for her, and we get as far as “I want to stay at home” and that’s the end of the exercise, but I will take on board what PP has said about carrying on with the exercise, and adding various other ideas to list!

I will raise with the nursery about the culture of prolonged drop offs … it’s a really tricky one. I’m starting to wonder if we arrive at a different time when other parents aren’t hanging around… maybe would that be helpful. But I need to drop both kids off one after t the other and my other DD needs to be there for the bell. I’ll discuss with the school.

Is there another child that DD likes at nursery? If there is can you connect with their drop off parent and ask if the dc can walk in together for a week to try and break the routine of crying/upset? Then meet the parent somewhere a short walk from the school that is convenient for them and tell your DD that you have a special project at work that means you dont have enough time to take her into the classroom for next week, but (and hooray) she gets to walk in with her friend and she is going to get a special snack in her lunch box and one to give to her friend for her lunch box too. What snack would she and her friend like? And then focus the conversation on that and move swiftly past you not walking her into the classroom.

Redirection and distraction is a well used and often successful technique with that age group.

Then tell the teacher what is happening and ask her to be very upbeat and positive with both dc when they walk in as the other mother is doing you a big favor.

Hi OP - I’m a teacher and mum to a 3 year old who used to cry awfully at drop off times.

I think the not going into the classroom is probably best because of the prolonging - and I know you don’t do that for any other reason than that’s the done thing at the nursery, but your DD finds drop offs trickier than the others so a different approach is needed.

I don’t like the sound of this new ‘stern approach’. It wasn’t discussed with you and when a child has needs that differ from the average they need to discuss with you before they decide to change things.

Could you suggest in the meeting that your drop offs will be short and sharp but that she is read a nice story and given a cuddle as soon as she gets in so it becomes a bit of a routine?

Any time there is a lot of supply teachers it’s not a great sign and stressed teachers are guilty of not always getting it right. I would say to her that you are definitely willing to support changes but stern voice, no affection and you leaving quickly is too much in one go. You’ll leave quickly but you want her to be given a little transition time.

Hope this helps x

The teacher seems to be out of her depth, kids should be happily going in or at least settling quickly not left sobbing. Also only just started back so may take a few days to get back into a routine.

I just want to post a message of support to OP. Please don't question or blame yourself, you sound perfectly rational and well balanced. You probably are close to your daughter and she would most likely, on balance, prefer to be at home with you especially if the teacher is telling her off! I would be cross at the teacher telling her off because I don't think it's appropriate and also blaming you.
I agree with you this needs a joint plan forwards. No telling off, no grabbing or carrying off - she's a bit old for that, no shouting. Kind positive words and if you trust them, leave after a few minutes. If you don't trust this teacher to follow the plan don't leave her and find somewhere new!
Trust yourself, you are an experienced parent, it's not a one size fits all, the nursery teacher either lacks problem solving ability, patience or kindness or enough experience.

I think this is more common than before in young ones at nursery; the impact of lockdowns definitely has not helped.
I think that the attitude of the teacher in terms of the language she is using is inappropriate. I would be horrified if any of my staff spoke to a child like this.
A calm supportive approach would be much more helpful. Sounds like your little girl needs some boundaries set around drop off, and maybe a countdown to you leaving.
Eg 'Mummy is coming in to do one activity and then she will be leaving'
Followed by countdown.
Staff can then come in with gentle reassurance. Telling her she is silly for being upset and implying she is manipulating is not helpful.
She is still very young.

My own 4yo who is very anxious and is showing more and more ASD traits had around six months of difficult nursery drop offs.

Our breakthrough came when I said to her ‘I think you like nursery, I think it is the goodbye Mummy part you don’t like’ and it was like a revelation to her, we used to talk through the ‘Goodbye Mummy’ part of nursery drop off and how we would do it and that then she’d play at nursery and then we’d do ‘Hello Mummy’ at the end and it was solved really quickly. I couldn’t believe something so simple worked as just pointing out to her what was difficult.

My other child really disliked nursery and there was a notable difference in how they reacted so I was sure it was just the separation that was an issue but I’d never told her that before.

Op the way that teacher behaved toward your DD is not acceptable. I also have a DD (my second) at a school nursery in Scotland. She will not go across the threshold of the door without pushing g the buzzer. I go in with her and help her hang her coat and jacket (tbh she does it herself this year but I still have to go in) if we don’t do this little ritual there’s awful tears. And even sometimes she does still cry and always always receives a cuddle from a member of the staff there. If I were you ( and I know I’m too late becajse your already at your meeting) I’d agree with the teacher. The approach you want to take and get them to agree. Then do the exact same thing every morning. For us it’s the buzzer and coat hanging then cuddle and kiss and I tell her who is picking her up after lunch. And I leave. Straight away. It’s awful when your little one is so upset but it’s the teachers job to help her manage her emotions not dismiss them as bad behaviour.