Tantrums for almost 4 year old normal?

[Curiosity101]

DS will be turning 4 in a week. We have massive tantrums (meltdowns?) at least once a week but often a few times a week. They last probably 30-45 minutes on average. They'll trigger over the most innocuous things.

In the past week:
"I don't want my brother to have bear paws" (I proceeded to give his brother Bear paws after explaining that there's plenty for everyone so he can have some if he wants)
"The yogurt didn't mix correctly" (one of those corner yogurts where you pour chocolate balls or similar into the main triangle pot of yogurt)
"You folded the tickets wrong" (those tickets you get from arcades that come in a long string)

Each one of these issues is followed by a minimum of 30 minutes of screaming/howling at the top of his voice, hitting, kicking, telling us to go away, telling us to stay, throwing things. He just a snaps and nothing we can do will fix it. We regularly have to resort to putting him somewhere safe (his room) because we've consistently tried everything else but he can't be left anywhere else when he's in this state. Eventually he calms himself down, I found him totally zoned out repeatedly clicking the plug socket switch on and off after one of his meltdowns.

I'm now at a loss. We've tried consistently to apply parenting and discipline techniques. Consistent boundaries, compassion, explaining his feelings, giving him acceptable outlets, thinking step etc. It's not getting better, if anything it's getting worse.

We (me and DH) are currently reading The Explosive child and we've also read a few other of the popular parenting books (how to talk so little kids will listen, the book you wish your parents had read).

Does this sound standard for this sort of age? Do we just need to believe there is a light at the end of the tunnel and with time he'll come round?

It's always felt like he's always been trickier than other kids. Even down to the choices thing "Would you like the red cup or the blue cup" DS would want a glass champagne flute despite never having seen it in use or used it himself (real example). But... Here's the kicker, his childminder and preschool don't report anything other than that he can be quite emotional (upset but not aggressive) at times. But no one has flagged anything at all out of the norm.

Today was especially bad (hence posting) when he was having a meltdown on the way home and actively attempting to hurt his little brother (almost 2) by kicking him full strength from his car seat and saying "No, you cry too" or "You be upset". Meanwhile I'm totally powerless driving on a dual carriageway.

Help a mum out 😅 is he probably just a bit "Highly strung" but normal as our childminder has described him? Can anyone recommend anything that might help? There's lots of other things I could list which makes me think he's slightly less usual, but the tantrums are the biggest issue right now.

Tantrums are definitely normal! Don’t worry, you’re likely to have some more tantrums still in the next few years… other things - depending on what they are. Some children are quirkier than others haha

Hi. So sorry can't offer any advice. Just wondering if he's starting school soon at 4? My sons been similar last couple of weeks and wondering if it's knowing a change is coming?? X

@lentil88 Fortunately not no. He arrived almost 7 weeks early so in theory he should be starting school in September. But we've delayed his entry so he'll be starting reception a year from now.

This week hasn't been particularly unusual though. 30-45 minute tantrums are normal for us. As is the frequency.

Hmm, sounds like my DD, who is now 10. It's certainly within the normal developmental range to still have tantrums at that age. However, my DD is now on the waiting list for an ASD assessment and the lengthy "tantrums" that she struggled to calm down from she had were one of my earliest causes for concern. Never any issues picked up by nursery or school when she started.

There are many other things that point in that direction for my DD, so I wouldn't be overly concerned if it's just the tantrums that are worrying you, but it might be something to keep in the back of your mind if you notice anything else.

@lavenderlou There are a lot of things that are red flags for me that he might be a bit different. But I'm of the opinion that until he starts school we wouldn't change anything anyway. Right now we support his quirks at home.

He has noise sensitivity (but we have noise cancelling headphones for him), inflexible (we try to keep to a routine, explaining what's next, pictorial routines, letting him keep a comfort item), struggles with transitions ( we minimize access to tablets/devices), late talking, obsessing over particularly thoughts/ideas, mind moving quicker than his mouth (he often struggles to get his words out and has to restart a sentence many times), often struggles to maintain focus of what he's saying, very funny about certain items/types of clothing. The fact I'm under assessment for ADHD and ASD and he's a complete copy of me...

And there's a lot more.

But realistically the tantrums and the aggression is the only real 'issue' we're struggling with. We want to keep him, us and his little brother safe. And after around 18bmonths of this level of tantrums (and it feeling like it's getting worse) I'm starting to get worried. But... Not if it's normal and other parents are commonly experiencing similar 😊

U took the words right out of my mouth my dd is the same she will be 4 in December it's never ending

My youngest is the exact same. He's 4 in October and as long as I can remember his tantrums have been something else. Today we had a 45 minute tantrum where he refused to walk and just stood in the street screaming because we walked to the shop instead of going straight home,after saying he wanted to go to the shop. I have asked my health visitor to come out and see him and she has asked for an early years support worker to come see him too to see if there's anything we can do to help. My youngest also refuses to use the potty or toilet or wear pants will only wear nappies. His nursery have said they don't see any concerning behaviour there just sometimes he can be a bit emotional. Feel your frustration I'm hoping it gets better with age as none of my other kids were like this.

He sounds like my youngest son when he was that age. He was diagnosed with ASD at age 6, after starting school. He regularly had meltdowns over seemingly small things, but is able to cope a lot better now he’s older.

I found making sure his basic needs are met (hunger, sleep etc) and then trying to make sure I limit triggers (which are mostly sensory - too noisy, too bright, too smelly, itchy clothing etc) which means he gets upset more easily.

I like the coke bottle analogy - each little thing is a shake of the bottle, and if there are too many shakes then at some point it explodes! It means that the meltdown is less often about one thing, but about all the little things that have gone on beforehand.

it’s tough, but sounds like you are doing the right things xx

@icelollies you've basically described what we do. It's difficult though cause it doesn't really leave any room for flexibility. Admittedly I like to have a plan, know where we're going, what we're doing there, what it looks like and sounds like etc. So I can just do what I do for me. Hence not considering taking it any further right now, more often than not we manage fine knowing his limitations.

It's just the tantrums. You make 1 mistake or misjudge something or something isn't how he expects it and then it's an immediate explosion. 30-45 minutes a good few times a week. I'm just trying to gauge if that sort of intensity and length is normal. Sounds like the tantrums alone aren't that far out of normal. We might just have to keep on as we are and see how he gets on next year when he's in school.

One thing I would say is that I wish I'd looked into ASD sooner with my DD as the waiting time for assessment is very long and my DD will now start secondary school (which I think she will find very challenging) before she is assessed. If you still have concerns when your DS is in KS2, I would recommend considering a referral by then. I swept a lot of my concerns under the carpet as DD seemed ok at school until about age 9. Until then, good luck with managing the tantrums, sounds like you have a lot of good strategies.

To me, the frequency, length and intensity sound like meltdowns. He sounds like he is struggling to regulate himself and seeking control to cope. It doesn’t sound like deliberate ‘naughty’ behaviour, but a lot of inner turmoil.
have a read of some of the asd literature, I think it’s highly relevant and useful for lots of children, not just those with autism!

Just wondered how the OP is getting on? Did things improve? I’m in exactly the same boat and would love to know if things get better or if I should prepare myself for my nearly 4 year old having this sort of challenge regularly! Your original post felt so familiar I could’ve written it myself

@CuriousGeorge9 I think things have improved in some respects. But I don't know if that's more that we've just got into a better rhythm of coping with it. Or perhaps more desensitised to it.

We're still on a waitlist for our local parenting course and we've asked them a few times about it, pretty much whenever we have a really rough patch. We went on holiday at the begging of the year and he did really well the first week but then you could see the cracks starting and we had aggressive meltdown after aggressive meltdown with no real way to solve the actual root cause. The parenting course is the first step to formal assessment if the parenting course isn't effective.

So it's probably a combination of his behaviour evolving a bit, combined with us having better strategies for coping and also becoming a bit desensitised to it. 😅

He's definitely got more obsessive behaviours now than before. A lot of which make me really sad. He probably asks me 20 times a day "Do I need to wash my hands" after touching various things or if we've been out. Also his little brother has vomited a few times and he's told him to stay away and not touch him "Otherwise I'll be sick too", he's shown some other anxiety around that too. Not to mention his sleep going to pot and he's clearly anxious about school in September. He's already told us he's going to bin his school uniform so he doesn't have to go. 😬

Just spotted this OP, it sounds like your ds is on the spectrum, it is becoming more obvious as life makes more demands. I found The Whole Brain child a really useful read. Don't treat the tantrums/meltdowns as intentional misbehaviour as once they've started they have no control. You just have to hold a safe space until the storm passes, but I do remember with total clarity how wiped out they left me. DS was assessed at 6, but we knew it was probably on the cards due to family history. I hope he gets assessed sooner rather than later especially if he's starting to show concern over germs etc, that could spiral quite easily once he starts school. Oh and to say the meltdowns did gradually diminish over time for us, but it feels like forever when you're in the heart of it so you have my every sympathy.

Thank you for replying. It’s hard isn’t it, I think as a parent you have ok times and bad times and during the ok time I find myself not wanting to believe something’s up, that everyone goes through this struggle (so they tell you). But I think I know deep down that this isn’t normal as we approach the 4th birthday and from our first born, this should’ve long since past by now.

Anxiety is the main thing we’re dealing with which leads to outbursts and meltdowns. As per yours, it can be the tiniest thing which is totally unavoidable and unpredictable so you find yourself walking on eggshells trying to avert any potential crisis. Glad you’re seeking help and wondered if we should go down any sort of route, being 3 it’s hard to judge but they’ll turn 4 soon and then start school soon after so it feels like it’ll come to a head soon. Like you, nursery haven’t flagged any concerns but I can see things happening there that will become an issue once school starts.

Hi, can I ask for an update on how things are for you? I have a daughter who seems very similar, 4 in December and I am at a loss. We have been walking round on eggshells more and more as the meltdowns seem to continue and become more intense.

She gets so worked up and upset it’s difficult to see and nothing seems to help until she’s ridden it out but even then the moods are lasting all day.

Any tips would be much appreciated

Updates pls very similar situation xx

DS is 5 1/2 now. We still have lots of ups and downs with him. His behaviour has definitely changed since I first posted. He’s in reception year at school as we delayed his entry. I’m so glad we did!

We have just started a parenting course with our local authority as we have run out of ideas of things to try. The only real way we have to handle him is to have a very low threshold to sending him for a timeout in his room. We also use confiscation quite a lot in terms of taking away toys, device access etc. But we’ve also leant into the need for him to regulate with devices. Interestingly school haven’t seen any of the behaviours we see, which I’m glad about. He does have a preference for hanging around with the adults rather than kids though.

We had a particularly bad episode over Christmas where he didn’t want to leave the park and he was so angry and upset about it that a random stranger came over to make sure his dad wasn’t kidnapping him. 😑 He attacked his dad the whole way home, being practically dragged the whole way.

It’s really interesting seeing him and his brother develop. For example he is screen mad, but if we’re playing Minecraft or something then his little brother (3.5y/o) will be happily playing with magna-tiles or stacking blocks or equivalent. Also his little brother shows bundles of empathy but DS shows next to none.

Each day that goes by I’m more and more sure he’s ND like me. But we’re still figuring out exactly how to support him day to day cause we are clear that regardless of any ND we need to help him figure out how to navigate the world.

This is such a refreshing post to read. I am very much in the trenches of the meltdowns with my 4 year old. It feels endless and I don't know how to help her...she is very anti doctors and I don't want to scare her but I don't know what else to do. It's nice to know I'm not alone