What would you have done differently?

[Shlr]

This evening I keep wandering how I should have handled a situation at my daughter's bedtime, and am curious to know what you all would have done.

My feisty and strong-willed daughter is 4 and a half. She's having trouble falling asleep on time at the moment (possibly missing nursery as it's school holidays), and is waking up quite early, getting exhausted and acting quite naughty in the day.

We often have an issue at bedtime where she doesn't eat much dinner (not because she's not hungry, not because she doesn't like it, I think just because she wants to play or rebel?!). Then after stories, just as the light is going out, she's suddenly soo hungry that she must go downstairs! Bare in mind, dinner is only like half an hour before bed, so not a long gap to work up more appetite. I'm certain it's just a stalling technique. I've always tried to say no to this but my husband is prone to going down again and giving her a banana or toast or milk etc. I can't do this easily on my own because I'm often also feeding the baby to sleep while getting her to bed, so I want to put a stop to this habit.

So this evening, she wasn't eating much dinner and was messing about under the kitchen table. I say "we're going upstairs in 5 minutes, please eat now. This is your last chance and we're not coming back down for any milk or toast or anything at bedtime". Repeated a few times. She didn't finish her dinner.

Lo and behold, stories end and "I'm hungry".

I say "no, I said we're not going down. You didn't finish your dinner and that was your chance".

(My mum is looking after the baby so I don't have him to worry about this evening).

But dd starts running downstairs anyway, not listening to me saying she needs to stay in bed. This is where I'm not sure if I did the right thing. I really wanted to uphold my boundaries and not cave in. I wanted to physically pick her up and put her back in bed but I knew it would end badly with her fighting me and possibly hurting herself and of course having an enormously long tantrum. But I wonder if maybe I should have? Would you?

Instead I said "if you go down, I'll have to get the baby because it's very very late now and he needs to go to bed too. That will mean I won't be able to cuddle you anymore " (we usually cuddle her to sleep, or I sort of do while with the baby but not as well as when solo). Perhaps I shouldn't have blamed the baby but I really couldn't think of any other consequences that made sense.

She didn't care and ran down of course. Demanding banana or toast. I said "no, I said we weren't doing that". Trying to stay strong. And that I wasn't helping her because we said we weren't coming down. But I also said her unfinished dinner was on the table and she could eat that.

Would you have let her finish her dinner? I hate the idea of her being hungry (she's a skinny girl too) and also she may not sleep if too hungry. But I also berate myself for sort of giving in and letting her get away with YET AGAIN not eating at dinner time and going downstairs when she really needs to be sleeping.

Maybe I'm just tired but this situation is winding me up and I can't figure out whether I went wrong or how to fix this annoying problem (one of many! She can be difficult!)

Would love your opinions. Please be kind.

Tired mummy

I'd take a slice of toast or crackers and cheese up with you for her to eat as shes being read to.

She's trying to assert authority over you .
Keep calm and stick to it .
You did exactly what I would have.
It's so hard it really is I've been there so many times .
All 3 of my kids did various versions of trying to " be in charge "
Take back control
Sit down with her tomorrow and make a reward chart and discuss why she needs to
Eat her dinner
Not cuddle to sleep anymore
Stay in bed.
Set realistic goals .
Once you've sorted existing issues there will be more she will create but she will know you mean business and then it gets easier

That's tricky op, and hard to know how much is her trying to delay bedtime and how much is her actually being hungry. Could you have a supper ready, something small like milk and a banana type of thing that she can have while doing stories for example so you've already addressed the 'I'm hungry' before it becomes an issue and if she does ask you can say, you've had supper now it's time for bed, what breakfast would you like in the morning x or y? And try to move things on.

I think sometimes you have to go with it and pick your battles nearly- if a tantrum ensues or she stays hungry you'll have a much harder time winding her down for bed so in that respect I'd have also been trying to maintain as calm a house and demeanour as possible.

The not eating much and the bedtime messing are 2 separate issues. It may help to have a bigger gap between tea time and bed - half an hour is very close and to tackle the issues separately having some clear space between them might help.

So when you said you would go and get the baby and no cuddles, did you follow through with that?
When you said no food, then told her her dinner was there did she eat it?
Sounds like your totally contradicting yourself and she knows she can get away with it.
I agree that dinner and bed is too close together, give it a bit more time. I'd also chat with her tomorrow daytime about expectations and moving forward, remind her during dinner and stick to it, she will try and rebel for a while because you aren't consistent, you and your husband aren't on the same page and she can play you off against each other. But once she realizes she can't get one over on you she will soon stop.

I agree with PO

take a banana and milk with you upstairs.

She gets three short stories and then you leave.

Thanks for all your input everyone. I realise I need to get my husband on the same page but I don't think he's willing to. He doesn't mind the situation at all!

Re bringing a banana upstairs, that is definitely not what I want to do because I want her to eat her healthy meal not just a banana.

Thanks for the suggestion about having a bigger gap between bedtime and dinner, I hadn't thought of that!

To answer some questions, she did eat it all so she was hungry. I did follow through with no cuddles (from me, although granny offered to read her a story in her room and she fell asleep to the story). I know I can be contradictory but was trying my best to get the balance. I didn't let her have the banana or toast I had promised she wasn't going to have. But I did let her eat more food because I wasn't going to have any luck getting her to sleep hungry! It's such a tricky one!

Agree re timings. If dinner time is so late, she's probably getting overtired and cranky, so not conducive to good eating. I'd be inclined to try dinner a lot earlier with a snack/supper if needed.

Also, any advice on tackling the not-eating-dinner issue?

And I kinda like cuddling her to sleep 😬 when she's good anyway!

So I think it’s fine if she goes to bed a little hungry for one night. Maybe that makes me exceptionally mean but I would put a stop to the going up and down. Once you are upstairs you are upstairs and that’s it. And you have to get DH on board with that.

The eating is a separate issue. Make sure there’s a big gap between afternoon snacks and dinner time as well so she’s properly hungry. But don’t make an issue about whether she eats a lot or not. Don’t cajole, bribe or make an issue. When she’s done just remind her that this is it, and now she has to go to bed.

And then follow through. Like I said there might be a couple of nights of interrupted sleep and some tantrums but she’ll get the message that bedtime is bedtime. And I suspect she’ll eat a bit more as well.

I have no issues with cuddling to sleep or whatever. I would separate HOW she falls asleep to the rest of it. She can’t go down and have a second dinner but she can have cuddles and a story- that would be how I would handle it.

It IS tricky with another baby and the general levels of exhaustion. The key is that you pick a plan (that suits you logistically and emotionally) and you stick to it.

I think you've got to talk to your husband, get yourself on the same page and agree what the strategy is. Otherwise your daughter will end up not knowing what the boundaries are. I think I would have a fairly boring foodstuff available upstairs at bedtime (banana for instance would not work for my toddler, she'd always rather eat a banana than her dinner!). If she's hungry, she eats that. But you've got to get both of you on the same page.

DS2 is inclined to dawdle when eating. He’s 7, so a bit older, but I just allow acres of time for dinner and remind him that (a) it’s no snacks if unfinished and that (b) he’s losing out on play time (there’s half an hour or so to play after dinner if he eats within half an hour).

So, our evening routine (at the weekend, childminder feeds them during the week) is:
dinner about 6, bathtime at 7, milk, teeth stories about 7:30, bed 8.

I agree with others. We do tea at 5 and then bedtime starts about 6/6.15 which is when they have a bath/shower then stories and bed. We also try to do main meal at lunchtime in the holidays so tea is more like sandwiches/ crackers and hummus etc as find they are often tired by the end of the day so an easy tea is easier for everyone. Once they are down from the table that is it, no going back. I know that's hard but if you do it a few times they learn. I wouldn't give in to the extra food as the sticking to food at tea time only will hopefully improve both tea time and bedtime in the long run. If DH can't stick to it I suggest you do it on your own for a few days to get it established and he takes the baby then once established will be easier for him to stick to.

Follow solid starts on instagram. Pretty much you need to let her being in control of the food in so much as this is what we are having for dinner you can eat as much as you like. Listen to your tummy as that's all we have tonight. Honestly they have helped so much with my picky eater. It wasnt instant but it has helped. He sits at the table and will move the things he doesn't want away and surprisingly to me will decide that yes actually his tummy is still a bit hungry and will eat a bit more. (He is a seriously picky eater though)

My ds is 5 and also doesn't really need much sleep and never has so we do the bedtime routine tuck him in read stories then put on an audio book. He knows he can play quietly in his room with his toys but there's no screen time and he has to stay in his room. This works well for us he plays for a bit then climbs into bed and goes to sleep when he's ready

Why is she having dinner so close to bed time? I suspect she's 'gone past' wanting dinner, but the few bites she has reignited her hunger & hence half an hour later, she's hungry. I'd bring her dinner forward a lot, then offer her supper before you go upstairs.

I like teeth cleaned befire getting into bed & stories, getting into the habit of eating in bed isn't a good one (IMO).

i know you like cuddling her to sleep, but it's not helping her to learn to settle herself (and that's a valuable life lesson) and they stay awake longer & longer as they grow, do you really want to be 'trapped' there for hours? & what about the baby, it won't be long before the baby won't settle in that situation. Nor should they have to. IMO DD needs a better bedtime routine, & the baby will too.

I think you need to keep the baby very separate to this, I know how hard it is I have 2 that have a bigger age gap but very relatable. The bedtime antics are probably linked to you not always being available for her at bedtimes anymore so she knows this gets a response. I think I would have picked her up and taken her back to bed rather than engage which continues to give her control and prolong bedtime. Whatever you decide to do your husband needs to be inside too xx

When mine were little they had dinner at 6 with bedtime at 7, if they eat enough of their dinner they had a glass of milk and raisins/marmite sandwich, if they didn’t eat their dinner they had a glass of water and rich tea biscuit. It is setting a president for supper every night, but I don’t think it hurts within reason, they only problem is teeth cleaning, so we had snack and some story, then teeth cleaning then rest of story and sleep.

I think you should keep up the bedtime cuddles if you can - she probably misses having you all to herself. Our age gap is similar so I say this entirely without judgement. Taking the cuddles away could reinforce the notion that she's no longer the precious baby - even though of course you know how precious she is to you.

As for the not eating, definitely a longer time between meal and bed. Personally, I wouldn't offer a bedtime snack instead, as you say, because she could quickly realise that if she doesn't eat her pasta she'll get tasty toast instead.

We find this approach works for us:
Cook ahead on Sunday for Monday/ Tuesday
Slow cooker for Wednesday/ Thursday
Involve older DC with bringing plates and cutlery to the table, let child decide on whether we have milk or water with meals (juice at the weekend).
Down time (no screens) after dinner with one or both of us reading/ playing with child.
More involvement from child with food prep at weekend - cutting herbs from the garden, choosing which vegetables to use, mixing/ mashing etc.

And take it easy on yourself, you are doing your best.

It’s very bad for teeth to be eating just before bed - really you need a clear hour of not eating before brushing for your saliva to neutralise the acid in your mouth. I wouldn’t ever give any food after messing around at dinner. I would do the bedtime
routine and then if she gets out of bed just ignore her, get in with your evening and just say ‘dinner is over as I warned, you must get into bed’. Don’t worry about when she gets into bed or not, just stick with the message and ignore any additional behaviour.

I'd give toast before stories, then do teeth after stories, use a bowl in the bedroom to do teeth into to minimise disruption.

I never fussed about food, in our house you could always have toast.

I also always let them read books in bed if not ready to sleep. You can't force sleep.

Agree that earlier dinner is good. My four year old gets too tired to eat, then cranky and picky, then what little she has gives her some energy to be annoying at bedtime.

We do our big meal at lunchtime – spag bol, shepherd’s pie, stodge type food I hate but that DD packs away. Tea is always more bits and bobs, pizza bagels, sandwiches and cucumber sticks type fare. (DP and I eat a proper dinner once she’s in bed, if we need to.) Usually at 5pm.

The baby goes down at 6.15/6.30, then DD has plain yoghurt or porridge for supper while having some “parents all to herself” time, then happily goes to bath/bed, though we still have to sit with her to go to sleep. (Have done things differently with the baby!) If she plays up with more water/one more story/“I just need” then I step out of the room, but I also know it’s a delaying tactic and try to work out why: like maybe we packed too many adult chores in the day and she didn’t get any 1-2-1 time. So we introduced the pre-bath ritual of a family card or board game with me, her and DP once the baby went down – so she has a solid half hour of our attention, building some Lego with us or whatever.

She is an insanely picky eater and if we don’t catch her at the right moment it all goes horribly wrong. I’ve got the same problem as you in terms of getting DP on board to be consistent: I’ll be aiming for no comment on what she chooses to eat, put things in serving dishes so she can choose what goes on her plate, no cajoling… then DP says he’ll make dinner and he plates up for her, massive intimidating portions, “you love carrots, just try the chicken, do you want me to cut it up?” while she revels in the attention and complains more about it all because it gets his attention. 🤦🏻‍♀️

Wow so many of you weighing in, I love it. Thanks! I have just skimmed quickly as I'm parenting and but just realised I've not been clear about a couple of things.

Dinner at ours is about 5:30/6. Bedtime routine starts at about 7. So it's a fairly big gap, I just said half an hour because dinner goes in for ages for some strange reason so we don't end up with much time between. I'll keep an eye on that!

Also the baby is almost 2, haha. I still think he's a baby. I'm still breastfeeding to sleep because it works. That's a whole other kettle of fish. I feel like we have so many things to change i don't know where to start!! I'd love to get little one to sleep first so we have one to one time with our eldest, but she's always tired before him because of his nap!

I wonder if dinner ending so close to bedtime results in FOMO. Almost like she knows by the time dinner and clean up is done it's bedtime so she doesn't want to waste time with something as boring as dinner.

I would try moving dinner earlier or bedtime a bit later and make sure she has a low stimulating bit of play before bedtime so she stops linking the two in her head. It also would remove overtiredness from the equation as the problem stopping her from eating.

What time does the “baby” go to bed? Can you start capping his nap so he has an earlier bedtime than your DD so you can have 1-2-1 time focused on her before bed? I wouldn’t stop feeding to sleep if it works but I’d experiment with DH doing the baby’s bedtime some
nights; he’ll settle without the feed and it frees you up.

I’d shift dinner to 5 and clear plates at 5.30 – DD would drag it out til she never left the table all day, no sense of time. Clear plates regardless of what’s been eating, serve pudding if you do that, then clear that by 5.45. Then there’s a 75-minute window before bath and put something specific and fun in there: after dinner is family time for a game or whatever – but only when mummy and daddy have finished dinner (ie there’s no point her abandoning her dinner to run off for this special family time activity as you won’t join in). Extra supper of toast or porridge or something equally dull right before bath so she won’t be hungry – make it part of the bedtime routine. My parents used to give us digestive biscuits and cocoa while the bath was running. We did bath milk for a while when bedtime was earlier.

But mostly, solidarity! I hate bedtimes when our four year old is messing around and I hate it when she doesn’t eat dinner then is obviously hungry later! Worst part of parenting.

Serve dinner at 5. Make it something she’s hard pressed to resist. Do a more adventurous hot meal at lunch but personally I couldn’t care less if she eats a sandwich or nuggets for supper right now if it means you can be confident she’s not hungry. 30 minutes to eat then clear it away without fuss. After that do something fun like play games together. Then at 6.15 you can offer an extra snack e.g. cereal and milk, toast, banana or yoghurt. Hopefully that will get enough calories into her! Then up for bath a 6.30 before into bed at 7. Read a story then tell her if she’s not tired she’s welcome to play in her room and have a few toys in there but stick to quiet stuff that isn’t overstimulating- my DD has a whole town of Sylvanians in her room, I know some people like those Yoto players too. Then hold firm about coming downstairs!