Ds 7mths - is it worth starting to sit him on the potty? Has anyone found this helped long term?

[theprecious]

I have found this link which is really good about early potty training and may have missed the boat kellymom

I wondered if it was worth trying with ds. He is quite obvious when he poos and it seems crazy to sit and watch him. Should I whip off his nappy and sit him on the potty? I use disposables at the mo.

Questions are - will it make any difference long term?

Also I am going back to work four days a week in July and I can't expect my childminder to do this so again, is it pointless?

Any views appreciated. I might post in parenting as if it's worked for people they won't be looking in this section.

tori32,

LOL, That may be your registered nurse opinion but in my non-medical just a mother opinion...you are totally wrong...Sorry

My daughter has had control from being a tiny dot and has been clean and dry by 12 months.

Children do have limited bladder control from birth. I have seen it in action from 10 weeks old in my own daughter. Millions of ECed children all over the world have bladder control from birth, except our western children...it doesn't make sense.

There is no proof of any problems resulting from early potty introduction (if it is not forced i.e. 1950's style and with no punishment)

There is proof of problems resulting from extreme late potty introduction. Bladder muscles need to be used and toned else damage can result.

QUOTE
Dr. DeStefani, the Chairman of Pediatrics at Loyola University Medical Center, supports our methodology stating in our video that the sphincter muscles which control bladder and bowel moments start developing while the baby is in utero and reach their FULL maturity between 12 ? 24 months with 18 AS THE AVERAGE. This is when toileting should be COMPLETED, not started.
UNQUOTE

Don't forget a child who is not ECed has many accidents a day into a nappy for years. Nappies just mean the accident isn't seen, it doesn't stop them from happening. Surely if you felt a child would be upset having accidents, the earlier you give them the option of using the potty the less accidents they have...every one wins.

Yes, timing is part of ECing when the child is unable to move. Once the child crawls or walks toileting takes place, following the child's cues nothing to do with the parents ability to run.

Oh and if any of the research you were given as part of your medical training, involved Dr. Brazelton, the only doctor I can find quoting that bladder contol in children is impossible. Please be aware he has recently recanted his stance on early potty training and is quoted as saying that ECing can and does work with no bad effects but he reckons mothers are too busy to do it these days. He still works on the Pampers committee.

I would be interested in any data you have CAT me references if you have the time, I am writing a blog article on Bladder control in Babies and the more information I can collect the better.

agree with BE obviously. if babies have no control, how is it that dd has not pooed in a nappy since 6 months old? sheer coincidence? i don't run to the potty with poos hanging out of her bottom either!!

i have also read that most medical opinion says it can be done, but that most western women don't have the time or the information about it to do it.

well I don´t have any studied knowledge on the subject but if it can´t be done it seems strange that so many non-western children manage without ever being in nappies And I doubt their parents just put up with them pooing and weeing randomly all over the house until they are 18mths-2yrs old.

Besides, I think when people say things like this about ECing they kind of miss the point which is, most people are not trying to toilet train their kids to the point where at 18mths old they can take themselves off to the loo all on their own and take care of all their toilet needs independantly. It´s more about avoiding them sitting in wet/dirty nappies unnecessarily. Or so I think..

Maveta, You clearly understand the ECing concept. As you EC your DS and those parents who actually do EC quickly realise this is about communication and child led choice, not poo in a toilet...that is just a side effect

My own defination of ECing is...
Elimination Communication is a gentle child led approach to giving your baby the opportunity of becoming clean and dry at a young age, by helping them to eliminate outside a nappy into a suitable container. (usually potty or toilet)

What ECing IS and ISN'T

Never understood posters, who use their 'qualifications' as a reason we should respect their words, rather than personal experience or good well backed clear research.

I can understand posters saying it wouldn't work for their own babies/children, they know their own children best. However how can any poster say ECing doesn't work for my child when I see it working daily, it makes it hard for me to take such posts seriously !?!

Hello everyone
I've been thinking of doing this for a while now - not that I knew it had a name "EC", or that others actually did it! Until I stumbled across this thread.
Basically, I always knows when my DD is going to do a number 2 - she's fairly regular, and I can see her get into position, as it were. So, I've been thinking about just sitting her on a potty when she's due for a poo.
However, I have two concerns:

1. Sometimes, I know she's going to poo but am busy running her bath or something like that, so it suits me that she has a nappy on and wait to change her. If I start EC-ing, will she get terribly annoyed if I don't have time to put her on potty? Also, she sometimes poos first thing in the morning - before I'm ready to get up! If I know she's due for one first thing, don't really want to set my alarm to catch it!
2. although I'm pretty accurate with regard to when she is due for a no.2, I have no idea when she has a wee. So, my question is, can I EC in a half-hearted way - put her on a potty when it suits me, and leave her to do it in her nappy when it doesn't? Don't want to damage her self-esteem or anything like that.

Any thoughts and opinions most welcome.

Babieseverywhere, it is a medical fact that children cannot hold urine usually until approx 18mths because of the immaturity of the detrusor muscle. If a child is trained once this has matured and he or she is mentally ready, then it actually takes no longer than 1 week to potty train.
Like I said, it is parents reading the signs that they are about to go, which the child has no concept of. Most children under 18mths will urinate at least 3-4 times in 2-3 hrs, which is not full bladder control. They urinate frequently and small amounts.
This BTW is from experience of having looked after several toddlers including my own dd and working in a peadiatric clinic which covered all areas of child health including enuresis and related issues. It is also from the experience of several childminder colleagues, some whom have been potty training for 26years, having tried all manner of methods.

can't say that thats my experience of dd to date - weeing 3-4 times in 2-3 hours, but there you go.
even if it is just a case of parents reading the signs, is that not preferable to basically teaching your child to use her clothes as a toilet?

tori32,

Well, it looks like all the ECing children I know of online and in RL including my own daughter are medical miracles or you are wrong.

My daughter at 18 months can hold her wee for 4/5 hours. Poo's once every other day. She is NOT potty trained...she is clean, dry and ECed.

For example. She wee'd whilst I was at hospital this afternoon at 2:30pm. Came home and played, had nap, woke up and sign for toilet and had a wee at 6:30pm. That is normal for us. She wee's infrequently and a large amount each time.

Of course your own un-ECed child would wee small amounts frequently. She never given regular options to use a potty. Why would she hold her wee ? She was nappy trained, expected her to wee in her nappy as and when she needed, she never knew there was an alternative.

Maybe you can suggest ECing as a good way to introduce the potty to your childminder friends ? I bet they would be interested in an easy gentle child led way to clean, dry children.

Please stop saying it can't work as it clearly does for some children. You are entitled to think it wouldn't work for your children but you are wrong to tell me it can't work for my child. Very wrong

Why not open your mind to new ideas and read more about ECing. The world is full of interesting things outside your current experiences.

Maveta on Thu 21-Feb-08 07:42:31
"well I don´t have any studied knowledge on the subject but if it can´t be done it seems strange that so many non-western children manage without ever being in nappies And I doubt their parents just put up with them pooing and weeing randomly all over the house until they are 18mths-2yrs old."

errr, which non-Western cultures are we talking about? From what I have heard andr read, urban non-Western cultures are very similar to mainstream Western in their approach to potty training.
The ones quoted by researchers tend to be very rural or even jungle cultures, where children spend very little time inside houses and where even adults squat outside the houses wherever they happen to be and where this is not seen as a problem. So a small child toddling around the village and relieving itself whenever it needs to would not be seen as "having an accident. There is no toilet training because there are no toilets.
A bit difficult to compare this to a modern Western family where the child spends a large part of its time indoors and where even outdoors human faeces lying around would cause outrage.
The first-mentioned situation is one that was prevalent in Europe as late as the 16th century- when even noblemen would relieve themselves in the open fireplace and the smell of urine was considered a safeguard against disease- but we have got fussier since.
Sorry, haven't really got a view on elimination training, it just annoys me when research is used sloppily, to prove things it doesn't prove.

There is a couple of modern studies on ECing.

The latest one is Here

QUOTE
For those who completed toilet training at the time of survey completion mean completion ages for daytime dryness and bowel control were 17.4 and 15.0 months, respectively; those who initiated toilet training during the first 6 months completed training earlier than those who started later;
UNQUOTE

Note mean age for bladder control was 17.4 and 15 months (wee, poo) hence some children finished earlier and some finished later. Those who started ECing in first 6 months had children dry and clean very early on (awaiting copy of report so I can look at all the figures) I guess it will be 10 months to a year based on threads I have read on ECing forums.

There is another older study and I link when I have time to find it.

On a practical level, how many children under toddler age have you looked after at any given time and the same time? This could work for 1 child at a time. I had 3 toddlers of 14mths, 18mths and 19mths. I attempted dd at 16mths. My experience with all the children was that unless you can follow all three facial expressions, body language and communication simultaneously then ECing is not practical. Especially given that we are expected to follow the early years cirriculum with them and go on outings regularly. How would this be practical, having 3 toddlers who may need the toilet on car journeys (can't look for signs and drive). Also, if they are playing up a climbing frame etc. With so many toddlers to supervise at a given time, you would be hard pressed to find any childcare (except perhaps a Montessori nursery) that would embrace ECing.
IMO all that will happen if it cannot be applied consistently is the child getting confused about what is expected.

So that is 286 children from the study I quoted from and 3 mums on this thread all seem to get to grips with ECing...quite a few medical miracles around these days

Babieseverywhere 'My dd can hold her urine for 4/5 hours at 18mths'
I would seriously be looking at her fluid intake since a full adult bladder rarely lasts longer than 3-4 hrs if the person concerned is drinking enough. Of all the children I have looked after and those of colleagues collectively, the only children who go this long between wees are the ones who do not have enough to drink and require encouragement with intake.

Thanks for the concern, but the amount of watered down fruit juice, fresh water and breastmilk my daughter takes in, is a good amount. She is healthy, active and we have no concerns about her outputs. This is normal for ECing children.

I don't understand the questions about three toddler and nurseries. You are not wanting to ECing your children so why prove you can't ? If you don't want to EC, don't, I don't mind if everyone else choose nappies until their teens, that is their business.

All I am asking is that you don't go around telling other people that they can't EC as it is medically impossible

Um.. cory, what research was I using sloppily? I haven´t researched the subject at all, I´m sorry if I gave the impression I had. in fact - oh yes - I specifically said I hadn´t .

Anyway, re. your assertion see ninedragon´s post 10.04pm

Sorry Tea71, I missed your post earlier

If you offer a potty at regular intervals your daughter will learn to hold on until the next potty time, including poo. So those problems would disappear.

I have heard of parents sucessfully part time ECing. i.e. They EC at home, nursery doesn't. However it might be confusing if sometimes you respond to her and sometimes you don't.

I think Morningpaper has good success with offering a potty every nappy change, maybe you could try that ?

Yes, I seem to have posted in the middle of a blazing debate - it's interesting to hear both sides though.

Anyway, thanks for the advice BabiesEverywhere. I think I'm going to get a Tommy Tippee potty tomorrow as you said it was the smallest type of potty (I had forgotten to add that my almost 9 month old dd is VERY SMALL - she only weighs about 13lbs, but that's another story ...), so hope it's not too big for her small bottom.

Will keep you posted as to how I get on EC-ing in a semi-committed fashion.

Tea,

The Tommy Tippee is a small travel potty, if you want a solid one for home try 'Baby Bjorn Little Potty' off Ebay or Tesco and Mothercare sell small potties too.

Let us know how things go on

tori32, as BE's DH I had my doubts about DD's ability to control.

But then I had subscibed to the commonly accepted social view that babies have no control. Social conditioning is such fun.

So while DD was growing up and DW (that's not an abbrivaition you see much here of I guess ) was quite happily pottying DD when she knew she wanted to go. That was fine, there's a certain amount of predictability in infants as you say.

But that has led onto an awareness that DD has about her own elimination. When she runs up to me and signs for toilet, as she has done since she was around 8 months old, I take her and she wees on cue I don't see how your argument can hold water. If you'll excuse the pun.

She quite clearly has control. She quite clearly has done since she was quite young.

I'm a little confused as to why you would decide to posit your rather old fashioned opinion in a thread populated with people with positive EC'ing experiences. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. But don't contradict the real experiences of the members of this board with what you learnt as a nurse.

Anyway, Tea71, thePrecious and anyone else who wants to try. Give it a go, if it doesn't work you've lost nothing. If it does, you've gained 1 1/2 years of no (or little!) nappy changes.

by the way, Tea71 don't get the mothercare small potty, it made ds cry. He much prefers the Baby Bjorn one.

Ds had diarrhoea today however I managed to catch two poos, missed a few more.

Tori32, thank you for your concern, I am not trying to get ds out of nappies. I am trying to avoid having to change pooey nappies and also getting him used to the potty. Children who can walk and talk should be potty trained IMO.

and thank you BE and DH for all the info.

I am hoping to try some form of EC-ing soon when LO arrives & it never ceases to amaze me how worked up people get over whether it truly works or not. That is just not the issue, EC-ers never say it is solely about toilet-training but about communication so questions of holding urine etc are not relevant. As I see it, it is a flexible system that any individual parent can choose for their child at whatever level they wish (from the bare minimum of offering a potty on occasion or choosing to change a nappy immediately upwards). Of course the parent must remain responsible to ensure that there is no obvious ill effect on their child in the same manner as they would do for any other aspect of their child's health like feeding or keeping clean. At least the debate helps raises awareness I guess!
In Japan & China it is common to be able to buy split-crotch baby clothing to facilitate them going to the toilet without soiling clothes or a nappy so it is not all just jungle or tribal cultures. I think the increase of EC-ing in more Westernised cultures is partially due to more integration of Indian, African & Asian etc cultures with our own, eg a Caucasian partner has a child with a non-Caucasian partner and the non-Caucasian grandparents influence the parents into trying EC-like techniques.

the precious - thanks for the potty tip. Am going to go to Mothercare this morning and see if they have a Baby Bjorn one - if not, will have to wait to start EC until I have time to buy one from elsewhere.

BTW everyone - very interested in what elvisgirl has said. I'm actually Chinese, and I recall when my 17 year old nephew was a baby, my sister (on the advice of my granny) used to offer him the opportunity to do a no.2 after every meal - except he didn't have a potty, she used to hold him over some newspaper!! And in china, the toddlers and babies there do indeed wear crotchless outfits.
Maybe there's something innate to me which draws me to EC-ing my dd ?? Anyway, my instinct tells me to give it a go as it seems a very natural thing to do and SO glad to know others do it and I'm not odd for even contemplating it. For all I know, I'll try EC-ing and it won't work, but as "Dear Husband" says - I've got nothing to lose, and if it doesn't suit me or I find it doesn't work, I'll just stop.

I did EC with my DD and then did child minding for a period. I had my own one year old and a one year old boy. My DD had been ECed since birth but B used cloth nappies.

I could still read my own little girl's cues and B started to want to sit on the potty at the same time she did. From being in nappies full time he very quickly spent most of the day at ours nappy free - with them on for naps and trips out and only about 5 accidents in whole time he was here! (my DD in nappies only when out)

so its perfectly possible to EC with more than one - even when one isn't full time ECed. I had the mum's permission, she loved the idea and the fact that his sore bum could get plenty of time in the air.

anastaisia, Thanks for your input. That is interesting to hear about two children being ECed at the same time.

Tea, Wow, being Chinese and visiting there, I bet you see many babies in arms being pottied. I love the crotchless pants, I am thinking of making my DD some for around house.

I use to hold DD over the kitchen sink (before we had a potty) and over the potty/toilet to wee, while she was small enough to be held in arms. These days we use a toilet insert