Is this normal for a 3.5yo?!

[FuckParkdean]

I'm struggling. I'm concerned. I'm a FTM to a 3.5 year old DD, which will likely become obvious within the post.

Let me start by saying she is generally a happy, healthy little girl. However, over the last few weeks, her behaviour has become unbearable. Of course she has tantrums and doesn't listen, usual toddler stuff. Big feelings, I get it. But is this normal?!

Every day she's lovely in the morning, then when we have to go upstairs to brush teeth/hair and get dressed, she loses her mind. Throwing things, hitting me, getting in my face and screaming at me. Not doing anything I ask. This will go on until we get in the car, then she's back to her lovely self.

She's the same with bedtime. As soon as she knows it's time to go upstairs and get ready for bed, that's it. Screaming in my face, hitting me, not listening. I can't explain the extent of these episodes. It's taken an hour tonight from start to finish to get her ready for bed, and it all started because I asked her to get changed into her pyjamas.

Is this normal?! Am I just being naive? Or is there something going on and it needs investigating? She's smart, incredibly good at speaking and understanding, plays well with other children, very compassionate toward others, loves meeting new people, always waving hello to people. It's just behind closed doors and only with me. Her father and I aren't together and he doesn't get any of this, it's just me.

Please can someone either let me know it's a normal phase and will pass, or if this isn't normal and needs some form of investigation.

Desperate, tired and stressed mum needing a handhold

Bumping and giving you a handhold!

This does sound incredibly hard. You say she's good with speech, have you been able to talk to her about any of this, what big feelings she is having etc?

Also, do you acknowledge her upset - how do you respond when she's lashing out?

I do find the positive parenting methods far more effective, see: the whole brain child, aha parenting, how to talk so little kids will listen, attachmentnerd (last one is on Instagram). Just wondering how you deal with those moments?

I wouldn't say hitting you and screaming in your face is normal toddler behaviour when you've asked her to get her PJs on.

Are you doing the usual things like giving her 5 minutes warning?

How does she score on the Ages & Stages?

My 3 year old can have occasional meltdowns where she gets very upset over something quite small . However it's not daily and there isn't much pattern (except for she is usually tired, hungry, not well). She can also be a resistant/slow to get ready for bed and needs quite a lot of encouragement, and I feel like I need to be on the ball to get through bedtime with no arguments. So I wouldn't say it's strange for things like getting dressed to be a trigger or for 3 year olds to have tantrums but perhaps not that normal for it to be every day and over the same thing. Have you asked her about it when she is calm? My DD had a period of really resisting having her teeth brushed but she had a mouth ulcer ( I didn't know) and it had hurt her so we had to quite gently build up teeth brushing again, make it a game, get her teddies to do it etc before she readily accepted it as part of the routine.

It’s normal. Sorry.
She’s managing all the emotions with other people because you’re her safe space, where she can let go.
Also, very bright children can be tricky in that they can be very good at manipulating adults/situations. All children like to have their own way, but she knows her behaviour won’t pay off at nursery.

I do see that it’s utterly frustrating.
Once at nursery a frazzled parent (a teacher trying to get to work) slung a carrier of clothes into our room and said ’See if you can do it!’ as she stormed away.
I gave the pyjamed child her clothes and a screened off space and a very few minutes later she came out dressed.

Could you do that? Talk to nursery staff about this tricky phase and see if they’ll co operate with you? Explain to your dd that there isn’t time etc so that is what will happen. Then do it.
It’s a logical consequence for an intelligent child. ‘You didn’t get dressed when it was time, and we had to leave’

Thanks for all of the responses.

We have the same routine morning and night, this only differs when she stays at her dads twice a month, but I can't say this change affects her behaviour as she seems to see it as a separate routine to our home routine so it works.

She scores well on the questionnaire, I gave up counting (I'm at work and pushed for time), but most answers were 'yes' with a few 'sometimes' so getting 10 points for most questions.

I stay calm, I ask her what is upsetting/frustrating her and try and work through it, but it's almost like she just stops hearing me, as she's listening but doesn't answer, only with a further tantrum or 'NO' sort of response. Last night was the worst, I sat at the end of her bed with her pj's after she had brushed her teeth, and every time I said 'it's time to put your pyjamas on' she ran off into another room and slammed the door. I didn't go after her, she would come back, I'd ask again and she'd run off again.

It's odd, and I know it's 'put on' because I asked her a question (I don't remember what it was, but it wasn't regarding bedtime) and she suddenly went 'pardon mummy, what did you say?' In her normal tone. Just totally switched the tantrum off. She did it a few times as I sort of tested it with her.

I try distraction, I try making it fun, my partner gets involved to try and switch things up but sometimes nothing works. She screamed for an hour last night, and eventually fell asleep cuddling me. Woke up this morning her lovely self.

I'm just so lost. We're meant to be away this weekend but honestly, I'm tempted not to go. God help when I'm taking her on a flight next month on my own!

Is she starting to recognise letters /words? Can you write a list together of her routine? She gets to tick off each 'job' done.
Make supper
Wash face
Brush teeth
Pj's on
Story
Kiss goodnight
All my dc loved 'managing' a list!
Works fab for shopping trips ime!

Honestly? At this age it could be normal or it could be a sign of possible neurodivergence.

People will tell you it’s normal. They will also criticise me for even bringing up neurodivergence I’m sure 😅 “Why does all naughty behaviour have to be neurodivergence these days?” blah blah.

Heres the thing - I remember really struggling with my daughter from the age of 18m to around 4. I would say things like “she can start a fight in an empty room!” I found her constant rage and fighting everything I wanted/needed her to do absolutely exhausting. She wouldn’t eat, and the range of foods she would eat got smaller and smaller and smaller. She hated getting dressed, baths, getting ready for bed, everything. She wouldn’t even toilet train. She was so stubborn and rigid in every conceivable way. I now understand this to be demand avoidance.

I really felt, deep down, that she was more difficult than other kids. But she was my first so I had no concept of normal.

After the age of 4 things got better. But I still had some niggling feelings that she was different. School didn’t flag anything. But when she was 7, her little brother got out on the pathway to an autism diagnosis and, after a ton of research in autism and girls, I realised that she was autistic too. She was diagnosed at 9 but to the surprise of school. She’s now 11 and, although we still have meltdowns and difficult times, she’s an amazing kid and off to grammar school this September.

My advice is trust your gut, and see how it goes. There’s every chance this is a crappy phase that she’ll eventually grow out of. But if you still feel this is outside of the realms of normal, don’t listen to all the people who tell you it is.

My little girl was like this around the same age, absolutely raging at having to brush her teeth at bedtime it was awful, someone suggested giving her a sticker reward after brushing her teeth and it worked like a charm. Got her a multipack of large animal stickers and she was so excited to brush her teeth and receive a sticker!

I have a DD the exact same age. Would it be an idea to try getting ready downstairs? Some people might think this is bad practice but in the morning I taker her clothes and Toothbrush downstairs and get her ready in front of the TV. I then say to her "there are 4 things we need to do before we can leave the house, get dressed, brush hair, brush teeth and take vitamins" I get the jelly sweet vitamins so it means one of the essential no leeway things are a nice thing for her. I think your DD is normal and I think it's a phase. Maybe try to mix things up and make them easier for yourself? I also find a very gradual bedtime routine works ie don't tell them it's happening but let them choose something to watch on tv and then put their Pj's on without telling them it's about to happen, just bring the Pj's and say "right let's get changed" and then do it before they realise. If my DD starts to complain I just make funny voices or grunting and make her laugh. Doesn't always work but distraction is a wonderful thing. Same with brushing teeth.i will say things like "let my find those granny teeth! They are so dirty they need a brush! Where are the mummy teeth? Let me get at those DD teeth!" And make it into a game. Do you let her try and do some of it herself? Solidarity to you, I feel you!

We don't have the hitting and screaming but getting ready in the morning and bedtime are the hardest parts of the day. My DD is 4 but she just starts misbehaving and generally uncooperative at those times. It's infuriating but, if my friends with similar aged kids are anything to go by, extremely common.

Thanks again everyone. I actually think she would love a list/chart for getting ready in the morning and ready for bed, so I'll definitely look into this.

We also have gummy vitamins which help as she has one as I do her hair, which has eliminated that battle.

I don't think she's on the spectrum for anything, I'm autistic and I don't see many of my traits in her - which I understand essentially means nothing, but it's only this behaviour which indicates some neurodivergence so at the moment, I don't think this is the case. I think she's just strong willed, knows what she wants/doesn't want and will do anything she can to achieve that.

Getting ready downstairs is also a good shout, with the tv/music on so we can turn it into a fun experience rather than the slog of a morning routine.

Some really helpful advice here, thanks all so much.

Hi OP, I've been there, it sucks. Two thoughts from me:

1. You mention the tantrum feels sort of 'put on' and she stops to asnwer a question she finds interesting. Can you turn the whole thing into a mega distraction technique? I used to distract my tantrumming dresser by getting him to sing songs and backing him up by doing funny animal noises. or play I Spy type game, anything like that.
2. I don't want to alarm you but have these tantrums started recently and are they always linked to dressing and undressing? Experts have long pointed to a correlation between a marked and sudden aversion to removing clothes and sexual abuse for very young children. Might just be worth having a think who she comes to contact with on the daily. I'm sure it's not that though.

I hated age 3! I get it. Mine was exactly the same and at times it made me really regret becoming a parent because it was so hard. He was also a delight for others which made it even more frustrating, and he was also quite clever, charming, spoke well, etc. But then we hit age 4 and he seemed to calm down a bit, then by 4.5 he became the most wonderful kid. Calm, reasonable, an absolute joy to be around. It's such a change from a year ago. They're all different but for us there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

A few people also mentioned things like ADHD but I was sure it wasn't that and I was right. Good luck and keep at it. We found that keeping a consistent routine, always following through, trying to keep calm but firm and making sure DH and I were using the same tactics, were all things that helped in the end (even though it felt pointless at the time).

My eldest was an easy 2yo and a horrid 3yo, lots of the same things you're mentioning.
She's 5.5 now and much better but still has quite a temper on her when things aren't quite as she had expected/imagined or with any transitions eg leaving the house.
I found the book "how to talk to little ones so they will listen and listen so they will talk" or something like that really helpful

@potniatheron thanks for the comment - I think it's more linked to doing mundane things such as teeth brushing, getting dressed, hair, shoes etc rather then specifically dressing and undressing but I'd not even thought of this, so definitely something I'll keep in my mind in case there are other correlations to that sort of thing.

Yes, she appears to be able to switch it on and off so I think distraction is a great idea. She has a few favourite songs at the moment so I might make each one a time scale for a certain thing so YMCA can be for brushing teeth, Sweet Caroline (yes, really 😂) for getting dressed etc.

Fingers crossed she's just stubborn and testing me, rather than anything sinister.

Oh, so you’re autistic yourself @FuckParkdean? Just bear in mind that autism is very heritable so the chances of you having a neurodivergent child are high (I didn’t join the dots that I was autistic until I birthed two of them 😄). At least you know it’s nothing to be afraid of. And bear in mind that just because you don’t see your own traits in her, that doesn’t mean she isn’t autistic. Just keep an open mind for the future.

I can't answer whether there's any nd going on (worth exploring if you're autistic though)

Dd is like this - she's super bright and generally lovely but getting out of the house and getting her to bed can be horrendous. She's 6 and has been like it as long as I remember

It might help to arrange your routines so there's an incentive eg my kids get up, have breakfast, then they go up to get dressed and teeth brushed before they're allowed a bit of telly in the morning. Muck about and the natural consequence is no telly.

In the evening, dd gets in pyjamas and is then allowed downstairs for twenty minutes play and bedtime story. Mess around and natural consequence is she doesn't get to come down and play.

The incentive works most days and it reduces stress as it gives you longer to manage tantrums, leaving everything until there is only time to do it all smoothly adds to stress!

My youngest can still be like this for getting ready/bedtime even at 7. I have wondered if maybe she’s ADHD (I do wonder if I am at times) but things that help even now are

• warnings before things need to happen (5 mins before we need to do x, 2 mins etc) and setting out expectations - I.e. you get dressed or tv is off (I do help if we get to the stage where things may turn bad!)
• turning everything into a game (race you upstairs, first one ready etc)
• cuddles when they’re overwhelmed

Now she’s older, when she’s calmer we talk about now she feels when it’s happening and how we could try to make it better (there’s much less response to the 2nd part still!)

My 3.5yo dd is similar, she's bright, capable and will willingly go and get dressed/undressed at a time of her choosing. But insist that it needs to be done now and sometimes all hell breaks loose, especially if she's tired. We also have a 5yo ds in the mix. Mornings have been hellish at times, DH and I got a bit desperate at one point, and I turned to MN myself. All these ideas came from other posters on here I think.

What has worked for us:

In the mornings we have implemented a visual schedule chart for her and DS, it has a picture for each thing she needs to do to get ready. I talked it through with the kids when we set it up, went through all the pictures, and what they meant, and what the reward is for getting it done.

Ours has:

Have drink
Have breakfast
Brush teeth
Get dressed
Get hair brushed
Get shoes on

Once she's completed all those jobs, she's allowed to choose a small treat from a jar of crappy plastic toys I have, or she can choose to go play with her toys for a bit. If she doesn't get it done, then the consequences are immediate and natural. If she's not dressed she goes to nursery in PJ's, and she gets no time to play before she goes. Not brushed teeth, no sweets or treats for the day (and I make a big show of 'calling' the nursery and telling them that).

It has mostly worked, we have a lot more good mornings than bad ones now. More than anything she knows what to expect next. Had breakfast? What's next? Look at the chart - ok, it's brushing teeth time. There are no surprises for her and expectations are super clear. I also have her clothes set up for her, we have a set of plastic drawers for Monday to Friday and I put the kids clothes for each day in them on a Sunday night, ready for the week. So each day she's going to the next drawer to just grab them out. Again it's limiting the surprises and keeping expectations very clear and consisitent.

But it does still need somene to be in with her constantly, monitoring and nudging. So DH and I tag team, one of us gets ready first while the other does breakfast and teeth, and then we swap. Also, I pick my battles, this morning she didn't like the tshirt I gave her which went nicely with the rest of her clothes, she wanted to choose another one. It was a horrible garish colour clash, but who cares, she's three. She doesn't have access to choose clothes I definitely don't want her wearing to nursery, all her good stuff is in a wardrobe she can't reach, so she can pick and choose from her drawers as she likes really. As long as she gets dressed and is largely weather appropriate, I try not to care if she looks like she's dressed herself from a rummage sale.

In the evenings for bedtime we have an oven timer, I set it for ten minutes,and tell her, 'the clock is switched on, when it beeps, what does that mean?' And she says 'time for bed'. Literally I say the same thing every night, and get her to acknowledge it every time. She can see it counting down though, and it gives her time to mentally transition. I also send her and her 5yo brother up to get their pjs on, and whoever gets back downstairs first, gets to choose the first bedtime story, second place gets to pick the second one. She's fast, when she wants to be, so that's been quite effective. If she doesn't go, or she makes a huge fuss, I warn that there will be no time for a story if she keeps it up. If that doesn't dial it back then there is no bedtime story. And I stick to it. I hate not doing a bedtime story, so this is last resort territory. I've only had to do it a couple of times though, the warning seems to be enough now.

Sorry this has turned into a mega long post! There are still mornings and evenings which are a bit nightmarish but they are fewer than before we did all this.

I read recently that DC of ND parents are sometimes diagnosed later as the and parents just see the behaviour as a quirk or something that they did as a child.

As ASD is so hereditary I'd talk to your HV about you having ASD and DD's behaviour and seeing if she needs to refer her to Community Paediatrics.

Often toddlers and young children just want to exert their control in some situations. You may have already tried these things but can you involve her more and make it really fun or into a game? For example, 'do you want to brush your teeth or get dressed first' - so she has a choice but you're still managing to do what needs doing. Can you get dressed at the same time and you 'race' each other to get dressed first? Can she brush your hair and then you brush hers? And maybe try adjusting your language very slightly, so instead of 'can you put your pyjamas on' say 'it's time to put your pyjamas on'. And questions like 'what do we need to do next', 'what else do we need to do before we can go downstairs' to see if that helps if she comes up with what needs to happen.

These tips are exactly what I use for my kids. The game one is great and ensure that you are setting the boundaries ie. If you don’t put the toy down then i will take it away. Rather than if you don’t put the toy down, you won’t get it again etc.

A visual timer is good and you could even use a wipe clean list so she could tick off her to do’s as she does them. Giving options of which pyjamas she wants to wear that night or which song to sing/listen to when brushing teeth too- but keep options to 2 max. And hold the boundary. Then lots of praise!

Good luck- it sounds tricky.