Not coping: toddler won't sleep before 9pm

[WhoShallISayIsCalling]

I'm really, really struggling with my 2 year old (28 months if it matters) and his sleep atm. He has always been low sleep needs and can't sleep more than 11 hours in 24 but also absolutely cannot stay awake a full day without a nap. He will be up nearly bang on 8 hours after waking up from his nap so unless he's asleep by about 11 (and so awake by 12) we have a horrendously late night. He often sleeps around then with us but when he's at childcare he sleeps later. We've asked them to wake him up no later than 1.30 now regardless of how long he sleeps cos we just can't cope with 9, 9.30pm nights where he's absolutely full on until then.

We're capping him at 45 mins in the day but he's furious and miserable when woken up; he'd like to sleep for an hour which has been how long he's napped for in the day since a baby (obviously when younger it was multiple hour long naps in the day rather than 1). I'm considering just forcing him to stay awake the whole day but when we've done that before he just falls asleep at like 5 or 6, wakes up an hour later and then it's even worse. He's also really intense and absolutely full on and full of energy until he's asleep. We have no tv on in the evening to try and not over-stimulate him, have dinner and a long bath (cos he loves it and it keeps him happy and occupied for ~30-45 minutes) and g out for a walk / in the garden when we can to try and tire him out too but recently he's impossible to get dressed. It took 45 mins to get his wellies, hat and coat on last night cos it was raining and he was wild in the house and we just needed to get out. He was absolutely full on until 9pm when he finally went to sleep. We usually go upstairs a little bit after his bath (so around 7.30pm) and read / play with blocks / attempt to wind down with the lights down. He's often fine playing there but can keep going for so long until we're both exhausted. There is NO WAY he would go to sleep earlier if we went up at say 6; we have tried this, he's just furious, screams to go downstairs and regardless of whether we force him to stay up or do go downstairs goes to sleep at the same time. He's not over-tired, he's just not tired; it's like we're trying to put him to sleep at 3pm in the afternoon and he has that kind of energy. He only eats sugar if we're out at a cafe or a biscuit at a playgroup etc., not as a daily thing.

If anyone has any advice to cope please I'd be really grateful; last night I was nearly crying I was so exhausted and frustrated and snapped at him really horribly a few times which obviously made me feel awful. I just get past it and go really cold and detached with him to just function and I'm really worried how damaging that is for him while also being absolutely past it and have no idea how to fix this. My DP and I both work full-time and having him wild until 9pm each night is beyond draining.

No nap, bed at 6pm or 6.30pm. Try for two weeks and see if it makes a difference.

We’re only home from picking him up from childcare at 5.30pm so I don’t even see how we could do dinner and bath in that time really as absolutely everything is a negotiation to avoid a meltdown atm. But you’re right in that I can’t see what else we can do other than force no nap but also no idea how to actually make him stay awake and not just immediately fall asleep on the 5 min drive home! We had a super busy day on Saturday to try and give us at least an 8pm night (a children’s farm, soft play and garden centre) he was tired at 6, had his eyes closing for under 1 minute when having some milk and that powered him up enough to keep going until 9. It just feels so endless :(

My 2 year old doesn't go to bed until 8:30 and sleep at 9, I have no solutions but just to let you know that not every kid is in bed by 7.30! There's no way I'm dropping her nap either as it's the only thing that keeps us all going!

For my children a 9 o’clock bed time was normal until they stopped their nap.

Can childcare feed him a meal before he leaves? Then just do a snack or porridge, bath and bed. You then have dinner after he is inbed.

My two year old refuses to nap during the day now but will fall asleep in the car or buggy if we go anywhere so I have to avoid going anywhere late afternoon unless I want her still up at 10pm. It’s a tough transition but I’m hoping it will get better over time and she’ll just go to bed at 7pm without sleeping in the day.

I suggest a 20-30 minute nap maximum. We were in this phase for ages with DC2 - it’s crap because you’ve just got them down and then it’s time to wake them up! And then grumpy on waking as you say. But it does help with earlier bed time.

I don’t know if you can get nursery to keep to this? But try at the weekends.

I found a bit of tv straight after nap worked well, or looking at photos on my phone - helped DC be less grumpy on waking.

I'm another one with a toddler who doesn't go to bed until 9pm every night, he does have a long nap during the day but I'm not gonna mess with it because I really need that break in the afternoon.

It's totally normal for them to go a bit insane when transitioning naps. It really depends on whether you feel he absolutely does need the nap during the day. Is he fighting it at all? If he does need it then keep it short and early, lunch at 11.30 down for 12 up before 1. Personally I'd try and shorten the bedtime routine a little but can totally understand you just wanting to enjoy him when he's been at nursery all day.

My 3 yo is dropping his naps (though has a long nap at weekends to catch up because he finds nursery tiring). He wakes at 7, nursery 9-3, plays with brother and takes it easy until tea 4.30/5pm, straight into pjs then muck about until bedtime quick book and into bed for 6.30. If he needs a bath I hold on with pjs and take him up at 6pm, bath, book and bed for 6.30. If we do tea any later he barely eats, he us really tired by then.

God I didn’t know there were so many of us! Thanks so much everyone for replying, I really appreciate it. When he was more calm on an evening even if full-on playing until sleeping at 8.30/9pm I was tired but could cope, it’s just atm 9pm is the earliest we get and often between 9.30 and 10 and he’s just been wild each evening too. The combination is a killer. Feeling like such a failure again like I did so much when he was younger about his sleep as he’s ALWAYS been up late and slept worse than ‘typical’, but that’s probably just cos I’m knackered and frazzled too and it’s a vicious cycle of me running out of energy and patience and him being more intense in response. I think his childminder probably could do a meal before we pick him up but (although promising all sorts of healthy variety when we started!) the food she does seems to be pretty beige and not all that varied. We do send him with more ‘meal’ type food (ie he’s gone with sandwiches etc for lunch and also a curry today) but often apparently just wants what everyone else is having! Thanks for all the encouragement and good luck with your late sleepers too; I get wanting to hang onto the nap and feel bad making life harder for our childminder with shortening it but atm in the week we’re just full on from dragging him up at 7am (he’s always been hard to wake in the morning), work all day then full on from getting him at 5.30-9pm! Obviously not full on at work today cos I’m done in

Also thank you everyone for not just going ‘have you tried a bedtime routine or putting him down earlier??’ cos I would not have been able to hold back I don’t think 😂😭 so exhausting having been act like you’re a moron too if you have a child who struggles with sleep. I’m not a fucking idiot and I have actually tried many things..! Rant over 😂

@Beseen22 thats reassuring to know they can go bonkers when dropping a nap; helpful to remember it really is all a phase!! Thing is my DS is also a small eater and often won’t eat before 6pm, even 6.30 (having usually had some food around 4.30 at the childminder too) so that scuppers bath etc coming earlier too. A few times when he just wouldn’t eat anything and slept earlier he’d then wake in the night hungry. Feeling like I can’t win! Your ‘just wanting to enjoy him’ comment actually make me a bit teary cos I used to at least be able to console myself with our late nights with the fact I was getting more time with him but atm I’m not enjoying him, just wishing him asleep and snapping coldly in a way that I’m sure is horrible and confusing for him. I need to change something so I can actually be better when we are together cos atm this just feels good for no one. Your routine sounds lovely and I think my DS would do better being picked up earlier too but we can’t do that atm :(

I have one of these.
It helps to stop listening to other parents who have toddlers asleep by 6:30pm. They have nothing helpful to contribute if you’re already doing a little night time routine and it’s just your child needs 9 hours sleep overnight and not 14 like theirs.
We take turns doing bedtime so we both get some evening time to chill out, even if it’s not together.
We sometimes use music or an audio book which can help make that time where he needs to just lie still and allow himself to fall asleep much less labour intensive.
We take full advantage of his doting grannys when we visit and go for a date night while they babysit and enjoy the 20bedtime stories and extra hugs. For us this happens perhaps once every three months which is much better than never!
We’re also hoping it improves when he drops his nap. Or maybe when he learns to read his own bedtime stories and we can just have a ´goodnight’ time then a ´lights out’ time that suits how much sleep he personally needs.

My DC3 is the same. Always been a low sleep needing child much to my annoyance as i love sleeping!

Now aged 4, rarely sleeps before 8.30pm & wakes up for school at 7.30am but obviously around 6am at weekends & holidays!!

We've tried everything but DC just naturally sleeps later.

When DC was same age as yours, we had to be cruel & cut nap off cold turkey so they would go to sleep at night. Was a tough few weeks but they soon got used to it (but was a nightmare being out in the car after 2pm as theyd fall asleep & theb were up til 10/ 11 pm.) Seems to have grown our of that now thankfully.

Yes when I hear about kids going to bed at 6:30, 7:00 it just seems like another dimension to me! We are still doing baths or eating at that time!

My eldest is also a late to bed kind of child so it obviously runs in the family 🥱😅

I'd try switching things around a little first. Have you tried giving him his tea, then taking him out in the garden or for a walk then taking him upstairs for bath, books, bed?

Mine always seemed confused if we broke up the bedtime routine by bribing them downstairs after their bath.

Yep same here at 22 months and has been for months. Limit his nap to 1.5 hours at nursery 3 days a week, it’s a 30 minute drive so can’t risk a short one! With us he sleeps earlier but on days he’s refused to nap at 11ish he’s fallen asleep on the changing mat about 3 mid nappy change! So he does need it, although he only gets 45 minutes if he conks out mid afternoon.
so stuck here too, take it in turns and he now at least goes in his room.
and to everyone who helpfully asks if we have a routine when I moan, yes we do with his 4 year old sister, so since he was born! Made no bloody difference. 4 year old since dropping nap is asleep 7-6/7 so I am holding out on that, she was the same at this age…..solidarity!

Ah I feel your pain! Our toddler was the same at that age. Only thing I can recommend is taking turns doing bedtime so one of you gets an evening. And if one of you is feeling especially pissed off, swap!

Even though she wouldn't sleep til 9pm or later, we'd always begin bedtime routine at 7pm, so it was calm and quiet. At 8pmish we'd turn the lights off and cuddle. It didn't help her sleep earlier but meant we got a bit of quiet time at least!

She's 3 now and once she dropped the nap started going to bed at 7pm. You'll get there!

9 is a normal bedtime! But can imagine it's draining when you're both working.
I think it will change when he goes to school everyday, but till then, maybe just roll with it and accept the bedtime how it is!

My little boy is 2 and he is the same, an hour max nap in the day, if he falls asleep late then half an hour max. Wakes up utterly miserable and doesn't snap out of the mood until bed time. I now try and have his favourite snack ready for when he wakes 🤣 bed time is 8 but a lot of the time he's still awake in his bed at quarter to 9, but he is mostly happy to lay there by himself and chat xxx

I used to have this problem op, I altered his routine so that he ate dinner with us around 5:30, then play for an hour I try to wear him out like you do (walk or pop him on his trampoline a bit and play in the garden) then I bath him around 6:45/7 and get him in his pjs, read a book and put him right down.
I've stopped taking him downstairs after bath because I think this stimulates him and he hated having to come back upstairs to bed.
I also got a Tonies box, I put Iggle Piggle or Lightening McQueen on it quietly, lights off and leave the room and he generally goes down within half an hour max.
I've just put him down a couple of mins ago and I'm watching him on the monitor now. He will go to sleep in the next 10 mins or so (obviously some nights it's different if he's had a late nap or not much exercise in the day) but I'd say 7/8 times out of 10 it's like this.
It just took a few nights for him to adapt to this routine but it works now thankfully.
Try it . Good luck xx

Move never went to bed before 8pm, once books were read it was 8.30, i can't see the issue of it works for them sleep wise

Could have wrote the same post. A 23 month old here. Bedtime is 9:30 here at the moment. If she's had anything over an hours nap then we are having split nights too. I'm just riding it out. It's challenging but she's never been one for sleep and we have tried everything. I no longer speak to my friend who has a 26 month old who still naps for 3 hours in the day and 7-7 overnight. They have no idea of the struggle

At that age, my low sleep child had dropped his nap. Sorry.
The only reason he was in bed by a sensible time was because he was up at a ridiculous time in the morning. Even now, as a teenager, he is up before 6.30 usually.

Would you get a "better" evening if he came downstairs to play? DS1 would have been a bit older - probably closer to 3 - but we used to get hom and his brother ready for bed, then DS1 used to come downstairs to watch "grown up TV" which was usually something along the lines of a wildlife documentary ie not my first choice, but not kids tv.

Thank you so much everyone. We have an old terrace 2 up, 2 down so the bathroom is actually downstairs so playing downstairs after bath isn’t as disruptive as coming down and back up again! Last night he only had a 15 min nap with the xxx childminder with the new ‘no sleep past 1:30’ rule and we went straight to the playground after picking him up for an hour where he did loads of running and climbing. He was still up until 8.30 (!) but was at least fairly calm playing so I can cope with that, it’s the absolutely wild full-on energy for hours that is too much atm. He woke up at 11pm screaming and crying to go downstairs and I just couldn’t cope as I’d crashed out right after him too and I was just so frustrated 😭 I think we’ll stick with the waking him up at 1.30 no matter what sleep he’s had and see if a while of that helps as he clearly doesn’t need a full nap if he could charge around a playground and play happily and not sleep until 8.30 on 15 minutes! I’d love to be able to ‘tap out’ at bedtime and it’s definitely a big part of the issue that I can’t; since he’s been tiny he just won’t tolerate his dad at all at night and will escalate immediately and not calm down. My DP is involved all night and last night when he woke up at 11 I had to hand him over pretty quickly as I felt like I was going to scream myself but it just makes things 1000 times worse so I end up taking him back and then being horrible. How did you all cope? I feel awful but I’m just not and I have a super supportive DP who I was horrible to last night. How is it taking all of the time and effort of 2 of us to not even cope with one 2 year old, just feel so shit. I really appreciate all of your posts and didn’t expect so many - thank you x