My daughters get on so badly

[Alexa51]

I have two lovely girls - one 6 the other nearly 10..The problem is they get on so so badly. An argument can break out between them literally after 30 seconds of being together. The problem is my youngest is extremely jealous of the eldest and feels constantly frustrated that she can't do the same as her (we try so hard to make things fair but because of the age difference there are certain things she isn't able to do because there are age restrictions etc.)

We try hard to encourage my youngest's own interests and sign her up for things where she is able (eg, she is now a beaver and my eldest is a cub.) My youngest regularly hits out at my eldest and does things just to wind her up. There are always consequences for poor behaviour in our house and we always always talk things through - eg, how to handle things differently, walking away, taking a deep breath. If there is really poor behaviour then they get time out in their room. I've read books etc on the subject and really tried everything but I think I'm coming round to the idea that some children simply do not get on. My youngest's behaviour has always been tricky - she is very stubborn and sometimes will deliberately not do what you want her to (always takes ages to get out of the car so everyone has to hang around for her, will absolutely refuse to put shoes, coats on etc when you need to get out of the house.

When she started school we were a bit concerned about how she would get on. However, she is absolutely nothing like this at school - her teacher said, I really don't say this to everyone but she really is a lovely girl - really kind and making lots of friends etc. She said she has a bit of attitude but in a really nice way and said she's a real character but in a good way. Her teachers and pre-school teachers seemed to love her. My eldest is quieter but very easy going - teachers say she gets on with everyone and can always be relied upon to do the right thing.

With us, individually they really are lovely children but I am honestly at the end of my tether with the way they seem to hate each other. It drives me up the wall and has been like this since my youngest was about 18months (she really had the terrible 2s, 3s 4s at home.)

I would be willing to pay an expert to come out and try and help us with it but sadly I think they just have personalities that clash. I'm a teacher aswell so it's not like I'm not aware of methods for dealing with challenging behaviour amongst children. Any advice very great fully received

Sounds like it's your youngest that's the problem. Why do you all hang around if she doesn't get out of car?? I suppose at 6 the car and shoes thing is because she can control you all. She can't at school so doesn't. I would expect you/dh to ignore and carry on with eldest if youngest refused to get out if car. If at the house I would say she can get out at count of 5 or I would get her out. If on my own I would lift her out and give incentive to walk but if not a consequence.
I was initially going to ask about SEN but if school have a different experience it sounds like she's getting all the attention for her behaviour at home so it carries on.

Once her behaviour is sorted you can start working on the girls relationship- get them doing tasks- cooking etc together without you.

What consequences do you use?
Do you go anyway if she refuses shoes/coat? That is toddler behaviour as you know so maybe toddler response- again it's control. Does she choose shoes/coat etc so has some control?

We usually work on three chances/warnings. If she won't do it by the final warning she loses something - eg TV We always follow through with it aswell so some weeks she really can lose a lot. If at home we leave her now in the car when she won't get out. It can still take absolutely ages for her to come in though. When it's school or elsewhere DH/big sis walk away and I walk too but have to keep looking back as we're always near busy roads so can't take the chance.
I would always force the coat issue but my partner doesn't. He just says let her not wear it and realise how cold it is. I've been trying that recently and she has been upset to be very cold. However, if we're going for a walk she will always see me carrying it (I know that if she gets cold half way round it will ruin it.) She does get choice over shoes coat - she is not a child who's going to be forced to wear anything but again she's always been quite controlling about it. I do think this may just be her personality type as my MIL SIL are both real control freaks (alien to us as we're all the opposite.)

You're right, it is completely about control. She is extremely stubborn and determined (but actually also a really lovely and thoughtful little girl when she's not doing this and the teacher says she is kind and considerate to the children in her class.) This isn't a brag, but she is very bright (she misses nothing!) so she does know exactly what she's doing. She has a very extrovert personality and is funny so is very entertaining - but also loves being the centre of attention which may be part of it. My eldest is quite quiet though and doesn't mind her taking over a bit so she doesn't need to compete there (but always does.) She's very much a child who is always clocking what others are doing (even at pre-school she would kick off because some children would be picked up by car and she didn't think it was fair as we had to walk. We talk to her over and over about how everyone's circumstances are different and people get what they need (but not always the same.) It seems to be slowly sinking in, but it just seems so sad that she is often so unkind to her older sister.

Could She be in the habit of doing these things for attention? Is there a way that being nice to her sister could get her more attention? It sounds likes she’s got used to this way of being and it’s a habit now.

Has anyone raised asd? The self centered control still at 6 ( is she year 2?) May be something to consider if sge has other traits too.
If it was me I would definitely not be carrying a coat etc for her, at 3 maybe but at 6 she knows. Also the losing tv etc isn't working so another approach needed. Have a look at self regulation tools. Think about her gaining something immediately if sge does as told not losing something at a later date/time that's not concrete and immediate.

Yes, she has got used to this way of being and it is a habit. Losing something at a later date isn't really working so something positive immediately would be better. However I'm not sure what. We used stickers for a while for something else (by day 3, when I had to take a couple away she said "actually I've realised I'm not really bothered about stickers, I mean they don't really do anything and you only put them on and then take them off." At school, however, she does care very much about rewards, and doesn't want sanctions.

I do really praise her when she does something nice for her sister. She can be kind, but both my daughters have got into a habit where they behave badly towards one another/overreact/ push one another's buttons and it is a very hard habit to break (not to mention exhausting and stressful for all of us.) They can literally begin arguing within a second of being picked up from school or within seconds of getting up in the morning. My eldest is now so sick of it that she starts over-reacting to things almost instantly.

When the falling out is bad we send them both upstairs to their rooms to play separately. Interestingly, when we've done this, after a while they will go in to each other and sometimes we find them getting along really well and playing. However I almost feel like they are doing this just to please me, rather than genuinely wanting to sort things out.

@Mynameisntrelevant yes, getting them to do things together without me is a good idea. It sometimes works when my eldest reads to her or puts her to bed. Cooking doesn't work at all - youngest can't bear the fact my eldest needs to take a bit more control over measuring amounts etc, organising things so starts kicking off, messing things up.

It's definitely not ASD - she's very sociable and gets on well with other children. She's currently Year 1 - both pre-school and school said she was far ahead in terms of all the social/emotional targets. Infact, both specifically said she was popular. She's not like other children though - she's usually described as a 'character' by her club leaders or they laugh and say things like 'ive never met a child quite like her.' Genuinely though, we don't get any negative feedback about the way she interacts with other children.

She's the youngest out of all our friends children, the youngest in the family, and for a while the only little one at school drop-off (my kids go to the smallest school imaginable.) She's very chatty and outgoing so has always got a lot of attention which possibly doesn't help.

So all those traits can be asd. Very sociable, friendly, controlling and attention seeking- described as quirky or a big character are classics that i hear. Sounds exactly like a few children in my class- I'm an asd teacher. It's really hard as asd is so broad and sometimes the line between 'personality' and 'asd' blurs, but do be careful making excuses about her being young etc. If it's asd it does present very differently in girls, often very social especially in school as mask. But around year1-3 are peak years to see the differences become more obvious as more formal education starts. There is obviously some issue so it's worth looking into everything. Please dont discount it.

Does she know personal space boundaries with others? Does she have any special interests? Does she excel in school at a certain subject? Is the coat/ shoes sensory issues? Does she have screaming melt downs when over stimulated? Any stimming/ flapping etc? What's her sleep like? Does she have a big group of friends or 1 friend? What does she like to play?

I am not saying it's asd but as the behaviour is still on going at 6 and not a toddler phase it may be worth having a read up about/ chat to the school- or LA if it's a very tiny village school.

It may well be something else. So when eldest daughter gets out of car when asked/ puts shoes on etc maybe ignore the youngest- no eye contact, talking, body turned away (as she is seeking attention- sounds like this the function of her behaviour) and give eldest an immediate reward- sweet, hug& praise etc - worth a try to see reaction. Focus on the positive eldest and ignore behaviour not wanted by youngest and repeat as she tests you! Good luck!!

My sister and I had a similar gap and did not get on at all. I was the one blamed for the relationship issues even though I largely tried to keep myself to myself. So I would say don’t try to blame one over the other as it’s not really helpful. It’s likely to just cause more withdrawal from bonding. Or did in my case anyway.

Sadly didn’t really resolve itself until adulthood. We get on really well now. Started rebuilding the relationship a couple of years after she moved out from parents home. Hope you find a solution sooner.