any other gay mums out there?!

[dot1]

Probably not, but I'm feeling brave enough to ask, after 'coming out' in another thread!

dp and I have a beautiful 11 month ds (she had him!) and now I'm trying to add to the family, although having problems because of pcos + thyroid problems.

We've had lots of wonderful, positive support from just about everyone - family, friends, and our GP, Practice nurse and everyone at ds's nursery have been brilliant - completely accept me as Mum aswell! Doesn't stop us worrying about the future - primary/secondary school bullying etc...

Anyway, just wanted to see if there were other same sex couples with babies around - it can feel like a v. small group to belong to, and from my point of view, being a Mum, but not a biological Mum can sometimes feel weird (but wonderful!)

oh dearie me, have just found the downside to plastering your thoughts and feelings for all the world (well, all of mumsnet) to read! I'm sorry, Sparks, that my views, among others, on the sperm bank thing have made you sad. For myself, there are so few of us gay mums out there, we don't need to start dividing up into known and unknown donor users! I realise that we were incredibly lucky that we had a friend who was willing to do it for us. As Dot1 says, I don't know what would have happened if he hadn't.

I've been reflecting on this in my lunchbreak and realise that much of what I thought I felt about sperm banks per se is actually stuff I feel about the people we know who used one. I think also that I probably feel a lingering guilt about even the fact that we've had a child - too many years of listening to my homophobic mother, not to mention the rest of this homophobic world - and therefore am too quick to look for another category of parent whom I can "disapprove" of, so to speak. Hope I am getting my rather complicated thoughts across!

I can be fairly certain that Sparks will have thought about - if not reached a definitive answer on - questions/issues arousing from the donor thing, because no doubt friends and family will have asked her. For our part, we were (and are) asked endlessly about how we would deal with bullying at school. Although we've given it much thought - me more than DP because I'm much more inclined to guilt than she is! - you can never say: THIS is how I would deal with it. You have to hope for inspiration when the time comes - that, and having instilled in ds a suitable amount of self-confidence and self-worth. For my part, I just know the minute he comes home and says someone has been calling him names, or whatever, I shall be in floods of tears and wondering if we did the right thing in having him at all, which isn't going to help him in the slightest! But luckily dp is much more robust and less full of self-loathing (perhaps self-doubt is a better term) in this regard.

juno, that was a touching note. I can't help adding (without trying to be divisive!) that the fact that your son has a real father (even if he doesn't have much interaction) it must make any bullying etc much less of a problem, because your son knows all the parents that brought him up/into the world.

I make no apologies for really believing a child (son especially) needs to be able to recognise its father ~(whether he's good, bad or ugly!).

It certainly is lonely on this side of the fence!!!

I honestly don't think that because ds will know all his parents, that will make either bullying less likely, or him better able to deal with it. As I said, from my reading of lesbian/gay parenting tomes - which are full of first person stories - it really seems to be part of the personality of the child, (and unpredictable), as to whether s/he will be affected by their lack of knowledge about a biological parent.

I think maybe we - well, I know I do - project a lot of our own hang-ups/desires about how we were parented and how we will parent onto how others are doing, and I have been reminded that just as I require "tolerance" (or acceptance) for my choices and for our ds, so does everyone else. Of course, this doesn't stop me thinking -as the papers are plastered with pictures of Michael Jackson dangling his baby over a hotel balcony - that some people are just totally unsuitable for parenthood!!

I think the skin colour shows that his child was a result of both egg and sperm donation!

Juno what is the overall view of children who are brought up in a 'non-conventional' household? I mean are the majority happy enough, or are there any key things you can do to give your children confidence to not be ostracised in anyway? are they really the same rules as we should all use bringing up our kids anyway? I've never realised that the data is already around to look at. I thought it was a quite recent development (i.e. due to technology and a more acceptance from society)?

I think it is probably better if possible for a child to be able to know his/her genetic parents. The sad thing about sperm donor babies is that for some - and it does seem to be a small minority- they do yearn to know who their father is. However, I would think a child who is deeply loved and cared for will be happy even if they have some niggling unsolved desires. And whenever people go on about lesbian mothers, I always think what a fantastic mum Sandi Toksvig must be to her kids, and what lucky kids to have her, however they were conceived!

Lil - I agree with you to some extent. I know love is very important and my child is being brought up with very little contact with her father (talking 5 hours per year kind of thing). But it seems really important to her that he exists. She can work out when she's older what she thinks of him, but his physicality is important. As is the fact that he has 2 other kids that she has never, and may never, meet. She talks about them a lot and draws pictures of her 'family'.

I really don't know how I would handle this if I didn't have a name and face to put to her father.

Another point - was talking about this with a colleague once. Since many sperm donors were poor students, the likelihood is that they will produce intelligent kids (BIG generalisations here) who will, in turn, go on to university. There is a much stronger likelihood of them meeting their half siblings etc. Especially since we are, supposedly often drawn to people of similar appearance.

This is a bit off track... but I have a friend who is adopted who toyed with the idea of finding her birth parents but hasn't because her actual parents are so fantastic she really doesn't see the need. I just can't agree with Lil that knowing who biologically donated the sperm (or egg) makes you a fuller person. I've very vaguely considered becoming an egg donor so I have thought about it in more detail.

TBH I think parenting generally is a minefield and you can guarantee that you plan in detail where bullying will happen etc etc and instead something completely unpredicable will happen!

Dot & Juno, it's been a pleasure reading your story - I look forward to hearing the next baby is on the way!

I have two adopted brothers. The first has no intention of finding his biological parents, even though he knows his mother only gave him up because she was pressured to (mixed-race relationship, single mother, late 1960's). He calls us his 'real' family which is flattering. My other brother has learning difficulties, his parents also had learning difficulties and had quite a few children, all of whom where taken away from them. So what is a "normal" family and who should say?

Thanks Dot for answering my questions, I hope you don't think I was criticising, just curious. Actually in a discussion I was having with my friend I was against gay parents having children because of my own experiences of gay couples being really forthright with their sexuality and defensive, and because of my own predjudices. But because of the reasonable and loving attitude you clearly have (and which comes across on here) you have changed my mind. So don't think your postings here are too revealing or unnecessary. You certainly have changed my mind about gay couples. I wish you both all the luck in the world!

This is a fascinating subject but I think it should be another thread. Will start it I think and go to bed and contribute tomorrow...

WWW, You sound like Mrs Merton. Oh no, that's me apparently...

thanks Rhubarb! :-) I think the best thing is to be open and honest, and there are so many grey areas in life/parenting anyway - no point being/getting defensive.

Don't mind any questions at all - we got used to lots of people asking all sorts of stuff when Juno got pregnant!

Just keep lots of fingers crossed for the New Year, when it's my turn to have a go....!

Dot 1 and Juno!... Ha! Ha! FOUND YOU!!!!

i KNEW you were going for it again!!! you really shouldn't post on mumsnet as all your secrets are divulged!!!! all these trips to visit bd (biological dad!)

Unfortunatley now you know me on here and my anonyminity is now gone!!!! sigh!

Fascinating discussion and very heartened to see all this support for gay couples!!!

no longer able to use mumsnet to slag off friends now!!! ha! ha!... not that i ever did before!!!

I sense this thread is ending, but just wanted to respond to Lil's questions.

Yes, there seems to be quite a lot of data around, though I think up until relatively recently gay couples with kids tended to be the biological mum who'd split up with the children's father and got together with another woman. Now, however, that we're more confident and perhaps more self-aware, therefore coming out earlier or not getting married so early, I think there are more couples having children within the context of their relationship.

I think it's safe to say if there was any evidence that being born to and brought up in a gay household was at all detrimental to children in and of itself, we'd have all heard about it. From what I've read, it seems that children of gay parents are no more or less disadvantaged than children of straight parents.

As to bringing up the kids not to be ostracised, no, I don't have a formula to apply. It's about continually giving your child the wherewithal, the self-respect, the confidence to navigate her/his way through life's choppy waters (how poetic!) - but surely that's what all straight parents are trying to do, too. I'm often struck by how similar 99.9% of our family life must be to that of any other happy, straight household. I only hope that the homophobes, the doubters and the merely curious whom ds comes across will eventually see that, too.

thanks for being so candid, Juno (and Dot)! That last statement you made about 'if there was any evidence that being born to and brought up in a gay household was at all detrimental to children in and of itself, we'd have all heard about it.i is a telling one.

Dear Juno and Dot1

I think you two are fab and I really hope that Dot1 gets pg soon ...

I have a couple of questions that come from pure curiosity ... hope you don't mind ... but I have been thinking of this since I first started to follow this thread ...

Basically, do you have a 'mum' and 'dad' situation? Meaning who cares for your DS most or is it a total joint thing ... for example, do both of you work or is one of you a SAHM? Who gets up for DS in the night? Who does DS want when he is poorly or hurt?

I'm only curious because in our situation I am a SAHM and DH works and I am the one who DS goes to if he is ill or hurt and I am the one who gets up in the night ... although DS absolutely loves his dad and they have a fantastic relationship ... but at certain times only mummy will do ...
But I do know a couple where the mum works full time and the dad is a SAHD and their children go to Dad for most things although Mum gets up in the night (typical ... )

Sorry for being so nosy ... just can't get it out of my head for some reason ...

Hi Ghosty

Lovely to be asked questions, so don't worry about it. Dot isn't at work today (busy with ds!) so I'll have to answer as best I can. But, as ds is only 11 months old, a lot of things are still unclear.

No, I don't feel we do have a "mum and dad" situation. It's mum and mum, and we do just about everything equally. The only difference I would remark on (just to annoy my dear Dot!) is that because I sleep on the side of the bed nearest the door and seem to wake up more quickly, some would say I respond to more middle of the night cries...!

I haven't noticed in ds a marked preference for who he'll be comforted by, though Dot does think he "knows" that I'm the biological mum.

Though I spend most of my time moaning about my work hours (three 12-hour shifts a week and every third weekend), I feel incredibly lucky that we've been able to arrange things so we split the childcare equally between us. I'm at home two days a week and two out of three weekends; dot's at home one day a week, every evening and every weekend, and ds goes to a local nursery for two days a week.

The only thing is, if you're in a "mum and dad" situation, as a mum you are, and feel, totally unique (as indeed, you are as a dad). As I said to dot some time ago, sometimes it feels a bit weird to not have that uniqueness myself. But then, I can take the biological link for granted and dot can't; I know she finds that weird, too.

Hope that answers your questions!

Juno,

Thanks SO much for replying! It sounds great that you have that arrangement with sharing the childcare 50/50 ... Your DS is very lucky. If I didn't fancy my husband and blokes in general I think it would be easier to have relationship with a woman

On the biological mum thing ... there are often times when I think that my DH would be a better 'mum' than me ... he has always been better at it than me anyway ... although he stays firmly asleep at 3am!!!!! grrrrr!

Keep us posted on the no2 baby thing ...
All the best ... G

Hello dudes. 1st time in here, cant stay long but I am browsing for any gay single mothers who want to contact me/eachother. Dont identify with the single mum bit perhaps coz I am influenced by society's general attitude, which, lets face it, is negative
I am a 30yr old hard working student midwife whos got life pretty well together. I strongly wanted a child. Met a complicated man who I had a weird difficult relationship with and I got preggers. We are separated and unfortunately we have no contact.
Now, 4.5 yrs on, Id love to be in a relationship, particularly with another gay parent. Get so frustruated cos though Im attractive, havent met any gay women since moving to LONDON. Realise this sounds like a joke, but Im not a scene woman cos I cant afford babysitters and going out is addictive.
Do feel outnumbered by hetros and cos its never relevant, tend not to stir up gossip by being out. Dont get out much but have most weekends free. Would any gay mothers ever want to meet to hang out, chat, go for walks/picnics that kinda thing?

Sangeeta, check out the 'mumsnetter meetup' thread on this very subject!

Welcome to Mumsnet. And to the very lovely women - gay straight and bi - on here!