any other gay mums out there?!

[dot1]

Probably not, but I'm feeling brave enough to ask, after 'coming out' in another thread!

dp and I have a beautiful 11 month ds (she had him!) and now I'm trying to add to the family, although having problems because of pcos + thyroid problems.

We've had lots of wonderful, positive support from just about everyone - family, friends, and our GP, Practice nurse and everyone at ds's nursery have been brilliant - completely accept me as Mum aswell! Doesn't stop us worrying about the future - primary/secondary school bullying etc...

Anyway, just wanted to see if there were other same sex couples with babies around - it can feel like a v. small group to belong to, and from my point of view, being a Mum, but not a biological Mum can sometimes feel weird (but wonderful!)

Hi Juno, I linked Dot's thread to a mail I sent some friends of ours with a 3 year old son conceived like yours (and their donor kept being sent overseas so they did some Eurostar sprints...but it worked!). I don't think either of them are Mumsnetters but it may get them started on the habit of a lifetime.

Hi Marina

Surely Eurostar are missing out by not using this in their advertising!!

Juno

I love the way you've explained it to your child, i.e. daddy helped to make you, but doesn't live here. I must admit I am very against sperm bank. Yes you get a baby, of course, but just imagine how it must be to not know, and have no chance of ever knowing who your biological father is. Its just so selfish to use them, gay or not. There's a whole side of your family tree missing, its not something a child can ignore, however good an upbringing they've had. What do you think Juno?

From a totally different angle, but I am also v. against sperm banks. My mum died when I was v. young and although I had a wonderful stepmum, who I consider to be my "real" Mum, I have had great difficulty with not knowing about my biological past. Simple things like being asked every time I change doctors whether there was any history of heart disease etc in my family becaome very difficult when you do not know your genetic heritage. I think it is v. important to do as you have done Juno and Dot1 and ensure that the biological father is around for future questioning/relationship even if he has no part in bringing up your children. There is so much debate about what is nature and what is nurture and I believe everybody needs to see know who they "came from" as well as loving the people who brought them up.

Had a conversation with a friend about this recently - sperm banks, not gay mums. We were wondering what happened to all that student sperm that was washing around when we were in our 20's (IYKWIM!) when poor students would go and jack off for a tenner? Are these students all or mostly parents now of offspring who will never be able to trace them? Anyone know? I realise this is another thread really...

someone I used to work with was a sperm donor (I think they strictly limit the number of times they use you!) and he had hairy ears...which have a strong genetic link..so I wonder if there are some rather obvious offspring of his around???

Hi Lil

Just to respond to your question, I struggle to stop myself being equally disapproving of sperm banks because I know a couple who've just used one. I can't talk about this with any authority, but from my frantic pre-pregnancy reading of books on lesbian and gay parenting, it seemed that some children really needed to know where they "came from", genetically speaking, and some didn't - I guess it's like now, when some people who are adopted need to find their birth parent/s but others have no desire to. The charitable side of me thinks it's for those that choose the sperm bank route to read up and make sure they're happy with the possible fallout of their decision. I won't go into my uncharitable side!!

Anyway, I should really stop posting - having lurked around mumsnet for months, I've now gone and got verbal diarrhoea!! DP is going to be none too pleased when she gets back (she's taken ds for a weekend with his grandma) (dgm?) to find that I've hogged her thread!!

But isn't it addictive to write something and then find people responding?!!

Yes of course it is Juno - AND YOU CAN'T STOP POSTING NOW - WE'VE GOT YOU FOR LIFE! Dot will just have to put up with it - like I have to put up with the fact that dh just DOESN'T understand!

I feel sad that I am facing disapproval here, not for having children in a lesbian relationship, but for having a child conceived with sperm from an unknown donor.

It's certainly possible that our child(ren) will have issues with not knowing personal information about their sperm donor. It's also possible that they will have issues related to having lesbian mums. And it's certain that they will have other issues in their lives that we have not anticipated.

Would it be better if my daughter had never been born?

Sparks
I am really sorry to have made you feel that (I know it was me) I didn't mean to be judgemental, I just know that it has caused huge issues for me to not know my genetic background. Of course your dd should have been born, and I am sure you will help her face all the issues she will have about a multitude of things probably not related to this, or having two Mums. Sorry again.

Sparks and all. I'm quickly learning that NO MATTER how you bring up your children they are mostly going to have issues with their parents. Take me for example, two straight parents, married before i came along, still together, yadayadayada. Doesn't stop me from wondering why I am like I am with my miraid of partially self-inflicted angst! I think that sperm banks serve a need and a purpose and to be perfectly honest -though don't repeat this to anyone (!) - most days I would rather dd have been conceived in that way rather than ever having to face all the problems she will encounter when she is old enough to understand all the bad things her father has done in his lifetime, and to justify her own existence in the light of his. He will only complicate her life (she doesn't see him at all - but may do in the future) as much or as little as one struggling with their genetic identity. I'm glad she was conceived out of love, but it was such a destructive, violent interpretation of the word 'love' that I'm not sure it counts...

Don't go Juno - its addictive but oh so much fun!

Prufrock please don't apologise for your views, as Sparks shouldn't apologise for hers.

Sparks, I feel really strongly about this issue, but its not 'disapproval', like I'm sitting here tutting and shaking ,my head! its a genuine sorrow for a child that does not know a parent. Its not a case of your dd never having been born, its more a case of her being a different dd if she'd had a different father (does that make sense!!). Still your daughter, still much loved. But... I still think it'll be something in her mind all her life, where am I from? How will you deal with it Sparks?

With adoption and divorce a child has a father out there, they can search for if they wish. Sperm banks are just such a dead end. Once they get older, I wonder if the young students etc that donated sperm will also wonder where their children are. If you give away your sperm I think you have as much a responsibility to your ensueing child as if you made the baby via sex. What's the difference to that child?

Juno - hope you don't mind my wondering, but what if at some point your male friend suddenly changes his mind and wants a say in how his child is raised? And if he is single now, what happens in the future? How easy will it be for any potential partner of his to take on board the fact that he has a child in whose life he plays no part? And (forgive me for asking) should the worst happen and you and your partner split up, might he find himself being asked to pay child maintenance?

I know I'm playing devil's advocate a bit, just interested to know if you have discussed the worse case senarios and have decided what you would do if they happened.

Batters there's no doubting the love given to a much wanted child produced from a sperm bank. But that's not the issue here. However, there are plenty of children very much loved by their parents that are still unhappy and have problems. The point i'm trying to make is that by using a spermbank you are intentionally shouldering that child with an additional dilema and worry in life. Having gay/single or any other type of parenting, does not in itself produce problems for the child unless society gives that child a hard time. BUT by never knowing your father, or never being able to find him, this will in all likelihood distress a child at some point.

I'm sure I heard that there are grown up children in the US who are demanding that there sperm donor fathers be known? So no, love is not enough.

It seems naive to me to say that having gay parents does not in itself produce problems for the child unless society gives that child a hard time. I know society discriminates against gay people and I don't see that ending any time soon. This is bound to have an impact on the child of a gay couple. So I am certain that my dd will have to deal with issues regarding that.

I don't think the problem is the same as the problems faced by people who have been adopted or people who have lost contact with their fathers following divorce. In those situations there are also feelings of abandonment or rejection. - "Why did my mum give me away?" - "Why did my dad stop coming to see me?" For my dd, our intention and the intention of the sperm donor was clear from the start.

From my point of view, it's not "intentionally shouldering that child with an additional dilemma," because it's nothing additional. Without going to go into the very long story of our situation and efforts to conceive, it's literally true that if I was not able to get pregnant by anonymous sperm donation my dd would not have been born.

I agree with Batters that families come in all shapes & sizes these days..I have a male friend, whose wife died in childbirth and his in-laws have played a major role in their granddaughter's upbringing (which I especially approve of as they are Asian and have lots of different experiences to offer her) which I know he's thankful for and proud of.

Sparks, I agree with you. There are worse things in life than discovering you were wanted so badly that your parents used an anonymous sperm donor to conceive you.

Don't sperm donors have to give details of things like family medical history so that it is available later if necessary?

(Fascinating thread BTW!)

Batters of course I'm not saying anyone shouldn't have children. I am saying that the desire for children is about the parents wants and needs not the children. Are you saying that any parent should be able to have a child by any means whatsoever???

To put it simply, the child should come first not the parent.

..and people that use sperm banks can conceive in the normal way. They are choosing an anonymous donor rather than one the child can get in contact with when they are older and ready.

Can anyone on this site tell us what it is like not to ever know who their father is?

Can this discussion bemoved onto a new thread? I don't think this is the right place for what will, undoubtedly, turn into another of our famous heated debates!

You sound like Mrs Merton

Blimey - I've just got back from a few days away and was wondering if anyone would have replied to my original thread!

Rhubarb - re: what if our donor wants more involvement. Well that's fine - before dp got pregnant, we met and talked a lot and drew up a 'parental agreement' - not legally binding, but setting out how we saw it all working. We (dp and I) actually wanted donor to have some contact - weekend visits etc. if he wanted, but he was horrified at the thought!

I think he quite likes being a dad, but not a dad if you see what I mean, and I think in future he may well end up seeing more of ds - once he's not a baby! I think this can only be positive, and I think we know donor well enough to know he'll never get over possessive - he's just not like that!

Sparks - I empathise with you on the whole sperm bank issue. I feel incredibly lucky we've got a great donor, but if we didn't, I would have wanted to go down the sperm bank route - although dp wouldn't... I knew we'd make great parents and that a child/ren would complete our family, so for me, the absence of a suitable donor would have sent me to the sperm bank (if I could have talked Juno into it...!).