Clumsy 8 year old daughter and repeated low level behaviour issues?

[Mylkyway]

I've already had my daughter referred to CAMHS for testing for dyspraxia/autism but the school didn't support the application so it got denied! The school admitted that she has some clumsy behaviours and sometimes appears a bit different but they wrote on the application that they were "supporting" her with this which is absolute nonsense.

Spoke to CAMHS following this and they had advised me go down the Early Help route instead which I'm not sure is the correct service?!

Anyway, I am finding things hard at times, which is one of the reasons I made the referral in the first place. She seems to persistently do things that I ask her not to do and she told me she's upset that I keep pulling her up on things...

She often steps out into the road on the way to school, when she knows not to, walks on the grass and muddies up her school shoes when she knows not to, goes on her screen in the morning when she knows not to, knocks things over and drops things a lot. She sits in thr middle of the hallway every morning putting on her shoes and every morning I ask her to move to the stairs because nobody can get passed to get their shoes and coats but everyday she does the same thing and then complains if I tell her.

It's tricky because she's such a sensitive, gentle soul despite all of this. It's just like she lives on her own agenda and any outside requests or rules just don't register with her.

I think it's become so clear to me that something isn't right as she has a younger sister (5) who isn't like this at all. She doesn't repeatedly do things that we've asked her not to do, although she's more assertive and more stroppy than her sister, she can follow expectations much more easily than she can.

She's started interpreting my irritation as me not loving her as much as her sister, which breaks my heart. But it gets so, so frustrating when I'm repeating the sams every single day. I'm also having to wash her school coat on a daily basis as she uses it to wipe her hands on at lunch time and she's such a messy eater.

It's clear that the school/CAMHS can't give me any advice now, so I'm wondering if anyone here can help?

Sorry I don’t have experience of this types of behaviour (my son is on a whole different level) but does it seem to you she’s not deliberately trying to be naughty or wind you up? I believe kids behave as well as they can so if these behaviours are repeated and she dislikes the ticking off it suggests there is a problem.

on the screen and use in the morning an easy win is just to take it away at night and put it somewhere she won’t find it.

Those behaviours could also be seen as very typical behaviours. Early Help may be able to provide some support for you to understand children’s behaviour. Sounds like a reasonable route for now.
Schools don’t really get asked to support or not support referrals. Usually there’s a detailed questionnaire for them to record what they notice. Sometimes they don’t notice the same things as parents because the child masks in school. Other times, they don’t see the behaviours as problematic because they’re within the expected range of behaviour for a child.

I’m so sorry you are being fobbed off. My daughter has developmental coordination disorder (the medical term for dyspraxia). It’s very under diagnosed and as parents of children with dcd we have been told there is often a need for us to advocate for our children.

DD was referred to occupational therapy by a paediatrician, do you think your GP would refer you? These links might be helpful and could be worth forwarding to your school SENCO?!

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www.dyspraxiafoundation.org.uk

There is also this film www.hippocraticpost.com/lifestyle/video/what-is-dyspraxia/ which might be useful to show people doubting you.

I hope you get some help. I didn’t really realise DD had a problem but once she was diagnosed everything fell into place. Parenting of a neurodivergent child is challenging and it’s helpful to have support in place for you too. Good luck.

How would you parent her differently if she had a dyspraxia or autism diagnosis? Start using those approaches now. Do your own research into both conditions and start implementing them, it won't do any harm and you may see a change in her behaviour.

She muddies her school shoes - it doesn't really matter but take one of those shine sponges and give them a once over in the playground if it bothers you.

She sits in a certain place in the hallway and won't sit on the stairs, perhaps this is a balance issue, move her and her shoes to another flat surface where she can put her shoes on in peace and not be in the way. You'll need to move them every morning until the behaviour is set which could take a month to develop and I grain a new habit.

She goes on the tablet in the morning - change the rules and keep tablets out of reach for all until after school.

None of that screams a CAMHS referral. More like you are a perfectionist and she is a normal child!

CAMHS isn’t the place for diagnosing neurodiversity, so even with school support they’d have likely still rejected the application. Autism/dyspraxia isn’t a mental health issue.

having said that, I agree with others. Look up some strategies used by autism parents to help get around the difficulties you’re facing - it may help, but won’t make things worse.

You can self refer via the GP for an autism referral. The NHS list is long, though.

I think you are being very unfair on your DD by saying BOTH you had her referred and you only think it is because school did not support that this did not progress, and that you think she 'knows' not to e.g. step in the road. Both can't be true.

I also think you sound very hard on her. Your irritation will be damaging emotionally.

-You don't have to wash her coat on a daily basis, just surface wash/wipe the food off and wash at the weekend.
-Put her on your inside when walking, so she can't step in the road
-Give her a different, nice place to sit to do shoes and try being more cheerful when she mucks up

And stop comparing the siblings - academic research shows parental expectations and behaviours with second children have an impact on behaviour. Parents regularly say second children are 'easier' but second children have very different lives.

Of course all of these behaviours are typical child behaviours 🙄, but they are happening quite literally every single day with daily reminders.

This is the point.
It's genuinely every day.
The same things.
Like she's in a routine of doing these things and can't not do them. Like it's an impulse reaction.

She's also 8 year's old. She isn't of toddler age so developmentally speaking, this should not be a daily occurrence.

And to add we went to CAMHS VIA the GP! They referred to CAMHS in the first place!

Thank you @Gunpowder I'm glad that atleast one person has something understanding or supportive to say. I'll take a look at those links.

Actually in some areas the ND assessment pathway is via CAMHS

OP, I'd go down the Early Help route and see what they offer. You may find that it's a hoop you need to jump through to access further support, or you may find they are actually helpful!

I have a child like this. She has mild dyslexia and dyspraxia. She cannot remember she mustn't do certain things, it's a memory thing for her. Recalls when I remind her but very frustrating. Also very sensitive so we try not to get too irritated and remind ourselves she can't help it

Thank you @BoobsOnTheMoon and @Ridingthegravytrain yes in our area it's referred to CAMHS. I will give early help a call moving forward.

It's affecting her friendships too. One parent told me that her daughter finds her "very overwhelming". She talks incessantly at times so I'm guessing this is why.

The memory explanation makes sense. I just don't want to keep upsetting her by repeating myself but I clearly am upsetting her. I perhaps just need to try using repeated phrases- repetitive behaviour is clearly her thing.

@Mylkyway what about temporarily stick a visual reminder here she sits to put on her shoes and another one where you want her to sit. I suppose a picture of shoes in a big red circle with a cross around it and another with a picture of shoes and a green tick. You won't have to tell her and if she has a memory issue then it'll help that. Once the new behaviour is learnt then you can take them down.

However I will point out that even older than 8 children have to practise behaviours and new routines and still need reminding, even at secondary school. The first few weeks of school are spent building and practising them at relevant points in the lesson - standing silently behind chairs, where the glues go etc eventually it becomes second nature but it takes time. Even things you would expect them to do naturally.

This sounds very like my dd who was later diagnosed at 16. Small things like sitting on stairs and not moving is exactly what she would have done.

I always felt there was something, but never sure what. She was l suppose difficult, but very friendly and chatty.

We went through gp. School would never have picked it up. She masked at school. Go to GP

Maybe she’s just clumsy and forgetful 🤷🏼‍♀️ lots of people are, including me. Why are you going down the CAMHS route?!

She sounds very like my daughter, who's been referred for DCD diagnosis. I used to find it incredibly irritating when people said things like 'that's normal, all children do that,' etc. Yes, all these things are normal in isolation, but not put together, and all the time. Good luck pursuing diagnosis ❤

There's no "cure" for it so all you can do is try and set up helpful reminders/behaviours like @Singleandproud suggested.

As a clumsy dyspraxic (with some of the behaviours eg. messy eating etc.) but not an expert - if you think from your daughter's perspective, her brain is humming with noise and she is kind of on autopilot for some things like putting shoes on - your telling off "interferes" with what she's allocated her thought process to, and will be very frustrating for her. She knows what to do but she has to focus hard on doing it. To put it another way, she must physically concentrate on NOT repeating the behaviour, and that will be the hard bit for her without prompting.

I still get it in the neck for messy eating (have done since I was little) but I physically can't help it unless I go turgidly slow. I know I "should" be eating more neatly but I've never been able to do it, and being constantly reminded is a pointless waste of energy for all involved.

I would insist on a referral for autism/DCD/ADHD pathway OP. Ignore those saying "it's normal", I personally don't think it's normal for an 8 year old to step into the road, and I have a 7 year old on the pathway - he wouldn't step into the road. As you say it's all the time, every day, and starting to impact friendships.

2 DDs with late diagnosed but long suspected dyspraxia.

Telling doesn't work. Or at least it might do eventually, but it's not very effective.

Work out what things are most important and let other things go.
With the important things, find work arounds / new ways of doing things.

e.g. Muddies school shoes - ignore, get more robust ones, wear boots and change in playground
e.g. Putting on school shoes - make sure they are clean, and then store them somewhere where she can sit on the floor and put them on, or she puts them on before everyone else by swapping routine
e.g. Stepping out into the road - not ignorable - so you hold her hand and continue to talk road safety with her at every single crossing

We had a no drinks except water in living room rule as DD1 was very accident prone. We gave up on DD2's cutlery use as not important.

Routine, fixed places for things, & checklists are your friends. And your DD may need scaffolding for things more and for longer than her peers.