Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Parenting

For free parenting resources please check out the Early Years Alliance's Family Corner.

Discipline without threat of removal of favourite possessions

20 replies

MontyMarsh · 13/11/2022 08:10

The easiest and most common discipline technique for almost all ages of children seems to be the removal (or threat of removal) of the child's most prized possessions. In this day and age more often than not this is computers / tablets / phones or even just access to WiFi.

Although this certainly has an immediate impact on the badly behaved child, and having defaulted to this many times as a parent - I can't help thinking something seems a bit off about this approach. It feels like the children are only behaving purely for the selfish reason of wanting to retain their access to toys/tablets /phones. Is this the best that can be expected? Or is there a better way of reducing bad behaviour and encouraging behaviour you want?

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
2greenroses · 13/11/2022 08:15

most of us behave for purely selfish reasons - if we just walked into a shop and walked out with anything we fancied it would mess our lives up - so we don't

Training children to have an inherent sense of good and bad is largely pretty basis, and selfish! but of course discuss kindness and empathy as well

AntlerRose · 13/11/2022 08:21

I didnt find this effective anyway. This only worked if they were misbehaving with the object in question so removing it made sense.

It depends what you mean by misbehaviour really, its such a big range of things.

I liked '123 magic' and 'how to talk so your kids will listen' as books for good ideas.

Olivetreebutter · 13/11/2022 08:22

It helps to teach them consequences. If you do X, you won't get y.
Consequences are a part of adult life. Some people prefer natural consequences (ones which match adult experience more closely) i.e if you don't out a coat on like you've been asked, the consequence is you are cold. But for some children these consequences can be a little too subtle, they aren't joining the dots. Having items of pleasure withheld is a more blatant and easier to understand consequence which they can remember and use as a psychological tool in the future. Lots of parents don't agree with it and don't do it. It's up to you.
The only generally agreed principle is that whatever the consequence is set at, you need to be consistent.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

MintJulia · 13/11/2022 08:23

Surely it should be a mix of carrot and stick. The world generally works along the same lines so dcs need to understand that.

Bad behaviour results in removal of general privileges. Good behaviour involves praise.

Having a teenage boy, the ONLY thing that works on occasion is the threat of removing wifi access. I'm not bullying or being unreasonable, just asking him to do his homework or put his clothes in his laundry basket.

He knows that is how our house runs so now he doesn't argue, normally just gets on with it, and we live a generally harmonious life. When he does something lovely, he gets praise.

CremeEggsForBreakfast · 13/11/2022 08:33

Natural consequences. It's a broad term and one that takes a long time to understand and a lot of trial and error but with enough patience and perseverance you'll get there.

Won't put your shoes on? Okay, I'll take you with no shoes but your feet will be cold and wet.

You don't want to go to sleep? That's fine but I have work to do so you need to stay in your room on your own.

You don't need to show anger but be calm, consistent, and show you mean it. Then follow through.

Also, pick your battles. Does it matter if he doesn't have a coat? Take it with you in case he changes his mind but he doesn't need to be forced to wear it.

He wants the green cup over the blue one? What takes up more energy: changing the cup or dealing with the emotions if you don't?

Does your child actually know how to do the task he's been given? I hear parents complain that their 3yr old won't clean up after himself but actually the instruction "tidy the playroom" is far too broad. Teach your child. Sit with them and say "I'll tidy the blocks if you pick up the trains". Maybe turn it into a race or another game like "can you put only the red ones in the box?"
Same with getting dressed.

Always prepare the child for what's coming next. "At the end of this episode we're going to turn off the TV and put our shoes and socks on so we can go to the park".

Smileyclouds · 13/11/2022 08:43

I found a book recommended on here - When Kids Push Your Buttons by Bonnie Harris, which lead me to her other book Connective Parenting and her podcast. She subscribes to real natural consequences as the PP has described, without any form of withdrawing special items. It's hard to go against the grain and parent differently from everyone else - but I've been using her methods from when my headstrong DD was 2 and we can now all live together without any shouting or fighting (obviously she protests when she doesn't get her own way and that's fine!) I'm recommending it here in case it helps others in the way it's helped me.

Oblomov22 · 13/11/2022 08:56

I found this. It's really hard to find anything effective that works, and whilst the books mentioned are good, I didn't find they answered this specific question.

Everydaywheniwakeup · 13/11/2022 09:06

Mine responded to being told off. If I raised my voice, told her a proper stern "We do NOT behave like that, etc etc" that had far more effect on her than a sad face and no TV for the day, she never gave a toss about such things.

MontyMarsh · 13/11/2022 09:16

Thanks for all your replies and recommendations. My DC are 6 and 8 so older than small children but not teens yet!

I understand natural consequences and they definitely work in certain situations. But not so much for more emotional abstract situations like sibling squabbling or older one winding up the younger one in a nasty way. You might say that if a DC is not nice to a friend then the consequences of that would be the friend would no longer want to play with them, but that just doesn't seem to be true for the younger sibling - however much the older DC is horrible and mean to them, making them cry, younger DC is back wanting to play 5 mins later. So unless I step in there is no consequence for the older DC's behaviour.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 13/11/2022 09:16

It works the same as any sanction really - so yes if you follow a style of parenting with punishment/sanctions, then you're using that as a tool to manipulate their motivation, tipping the scales. It's based on a premise that children are misbehaving because it works for them - which might sometimes be true.

However you're right that it is an extrinsic system which has drawbacks. This is one of the criticisms of punishment as a behaviour management tool.

I see it as kind of a ladder and we can go up or down the ladder. Scary punishments are right at the bottom, hopefully nobody is using those any more. That might be hitting/pain, screaming, threat of permanent loss of something precious, being shut in a dark place etc. You might fall into this by accident if you're struggling. Maybe in the metaphor this could be a pit below the ladder!

Then you have non scary but unpleasant/unwanted punishment that is generic, such as temporary loss of a privilege or posession, grounding, time out (in a safe location) writing lines doing laps etc. That's where your question lies on the ladder for me. It's not harmful but it's probably the most crude acceptable tool in the parenting tool box. In order to be effective, you have to also combine it with positive interactions, praise, explanation, talking, problem solving etc. If you just used punishment on its own without ever doing anything else then it would not work well (unless it's scary, but then it's probably causing harm in addition to shaping behaviour).

So if you want to climb the ladder I'd suggest the following steps. Nobody parents entirely on one step of the ladder - we all move up and down it as the situation requires.

Next one is logical consequences - where you choose a punishment that has a learning or restorative or preventative outcome. So perhaps if you make a mess, then you have to clean it up yourself. If you hurt somebody then you have to play somewhere else. If you waste something then you must use your pocket money to replace it, throw food = dinner time is over, etc. Using reason and logic and explanations - giving children information about why you want them to behave a certain way, not "because if you don't you'll be grounded". Just beware of using very lengthy explanations for very small children, you must tailor it to their attention span and make the message as simple as possible.

The next step is positive parenting. Encourage and praise what you like/want to see more of, rather than discouraging the bad. A good exercise is to think of the 3 things you say no or stop to most often. For example no hitting, stop shouting, don't throw food. Frame it as a positive expectation instead.
If you feel frustrated, ask a grown up to help with brother.
Use a calm voice so I can understand you.
If you don't want it, put it on this plate.

Doing this as an exercise also helps you notice when your child is doing something right and you can praise it when you see it.
I saw that you felt angry with brother but you stopped yourself from hurting him, well done.
I'm glad that you could talk to me when you felt sad. Now I can help you.
You're all finished, thanks for letting me know, good boy.

You can also use tools like sticker charts, the pasta jar method, or a token economy system as part of rewarding and incentivising positive behaviours. This still has the same issue of being extrinsic motivation, but it's less destructive than punishment, because it helps the child build a positive self-image and focuses on what they are doing right rather than getting wrong.

Next step is skipping reward and punishment entirely but controlling the environment/using supervision to help coach in the moment. You should still immediately stop any dangerous behaviour but instead redirect to an acceptable route. e.g. child wants to throw trains, explain no we don't throw trains, let's find some balls or beanbags to throw. Look up the concept of Yes Space (RIE). Redirection is helpful so trying to see the child's point of view and understand what they are expressing with the unwanted behaviour. Is it emotional (frustration, fear, etc) can you alleviate that? Is it impulsive, can you follow the impulse and redirect that? Also, concentrating on building a positive, nonjudgemental relationship with your child in order to build trust. See unwanted behaviour as something to problem solve instead of punish. What's driving this? Can we solve the problem in a way that's acceptable to me (parent) and achievable for child? Is there something environmental that's causing it e.g. insufficient exercise, hunger, sensory overwhelm. Be curious.

Last step is probably the one that says stop focusing on behaviour at all, because behaviour (hitting, screaming, breaking things) is occurring when children are in such an emotionally elevated state that they can't control it anyway even if they wanted to, and by treating it as something that they are choosing to do, we're hurting them by punishing something that they are unable to manage. Instead see behaviour in terms of underdeveloped skills. They may be underdeveloped due to age (e.g. almost every 2 year old tantrums in response to frustration or disappointment, because their emotional regulation skills have not yet developed to a point that they can calm themselves in the face of those feelings). Work on the skills and/or wait for them to develop naturally and the problematic behaviours will go away by themselves. In the meantime you may need to avoid situations that trigger a need for expectations the child cannot yet meet. Look up Ross Greene CPS, Mona Delahooke.

Most parents never get to that top rung because they don't need it. It's often an approach only used with children who are extremely reactive to the lower rungs because they have trauma, or for whom the "standard" expectations are not appropriate because they have developmental delays. You can use it for typically developing, not traumatised children but it can be quite labour intensive and you probably don't need to because a mixture of positive reinforcement, relationship building, age appropriate explanations, controlling the environment where appropriate and yes perhaps the occasional logical or even generic punishment is a good mix for most children and they respond well to it.

Sorry this was so long. Hope it helps.

BertieBotts · 13/11/2022 09:22

Sorry I have mostly included examples about younger children. They are easy examples to think up that's why.

I like the book How To Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Siblings Without Rivalry, both from the same authors. Those work well in the primary school age range and include lots of examples of how to encourage what you want without punishment.

For the problem solving Ross Greene has one called Raising Human Beings which I like a lot as well. It's good for children 6+ who can have a really good discussion.

Also holding family meetings is often suggested as a technique to get kids to feel included in family rule type decisions or mediate discussions such as who does what chores when, how a shared resource works, when homework must be completed, what the rules are surrounding internet access etc.

bloodyeverlastinghell · 13/11/2022 09:40

I wield Wi-Fi as carrot and stick. Do this earn extra time. Fail to do something lose your time. It does work. I’m asking them for basics. Tidy room , clothes in the basket, towel returned to bathroom, shoes on the rack. Do your homework first. Blah de blah. Without discipline the kids would watch YouTube 12 hours a day. My job is to ensure they are educated, exercised and go out into the world with the ability to cook/ clean/ function in society. That normally means doing what you need to do before doing what you want to do.

MontyMarsh · 13/11/2022 09:41

Wow @BertieBotts thanks for such an in depth post. I will have to read and digest this at length. I think we have how to talk so kids will listen, will have to re visit it.

OP posts:
NKffff · 13/11/2022 09:52

@BertieBotts thanks, that summary and ladder analogy is really useful. Do you have any articles, etc. that show this progression? I'm particularly thinking about children who have experienced trauma. I've read the Mona dela Hook book but if I want to show others at work, I could really do with a summary.

BrokenWing · 13/11/2022 10:40

This is quite interesting, I was thinking back to ds at that age and he didnt have tablets, or Internet access (we are that old 🤣) so he didn't have those or any other extremely high value possesions to revoke access to until he was into secondary school. It is those same high value, addictive possesions that raise intense emotions and cause many of the behaviour issues that are abundant today, they are difficult to avoid now, but I am glad they were not around when ds was primary age.

Personally I used so many different ways, depending on the situation.

The infamous mum look that stops them in their tracks
1,2,3 - very rarely got above 1
Natural consequences - negative
Natural consequence - positive - very powerful, I really enjoyed having Scott over to play today, you both played well together, would you like to ask him to come again soon?/shall we walk down to the icecream place, you can tell me about it and we can get something for after dinner to top off a lovely day? - I enjoyed that Pizza with Auntie Joan, she told me she was amazed at how grown up and articulate you have become since the last time she saw you and how much she enjoyed talking with you.
Time out - Never called it that, or naughty step, but on the occasions when ds got himself into such a state he wouldnt listen to reason, perhaps once or twice a week, we would tell him to sit somewhere for a few minutes until he calmed down, then we would talk about it. It wasn't a punishment per se, he needed time out to calm down, as he got older he learned to walk away from/or deal differenty with situations before they wound him up.

Different techniques work for different dc and different parents, the key things to me are to stay calm and in control yourself when enforcing your standards of behaviour, be consistent with what those standards are and always follow through - that means positive and negative. Always being their parent, not their friend gives them clear consistent messages, dc need boundaries to feel safe and secure - there is nothing worse than realising your dcs upset is out of control because they are confused about where those boundaries are because they keep changing depending if you are in friend or parent mode. Knowing those boundaries is what makes the mum look or 1,2,3 work. I never did get beyond 3, and can remember at the time wondering what on earth I would do if I did!!!

SunflowerGirl91 · 13/11/2022 11:52

Everydaywheniwakeup · 13/11/2022 09:06

Mine responded to being told off. If I raised my voice, told her a proper stern "We do NOT behave like that, etc etc" that had far more effect on her than a sad face and no TV for the day, she never gave a toss about such things.

so Fear then? she didn’t respond to it, she would’ve been scared

would you respond well if your partner raised your voice and was stern if you’d done something incorrectly ?

Everydaywheniwakeup · 13/11/2022 13:25

SunflowerGirl91 · 13/11/2022 11:52

so Fear then? she didn’t respond to it, she would’ve been scared

would you respond well if your partner raised your voice and was stern if you’d done something incorrectly ?

Telling a child off is not yelling or screaming or scaring a child. If I said to her, if you don't put your shoes on your feet will get wet, she wouldn't be remotely concerned. If I suggested time out, she'd happily sit there. If I told her off, it only needed saying once. You raise yours how it suits your children, I'm very happy with how I raised mine.

BertieBotts · 14/11/2022 10:23

Not a single book no, it's just my interpretation of a kind of scale of parenting tools/methods. I originally had it as a kind of ladder as in what developed over time, because I kept getting frustrated by people talking about "gentle parenting" (and meaning any individual point on the scale at all except for generic-but-nonscary punishment) but it's hard to find the root of a lot of these things (if you're doing it by time, maybe swap logical consequences and positive parenting though I'm not sure). My eldest is 14 and I've been interested in parenting theory for probably longer than that. I was a weird teenager who used to go to the library and read child development/psychology/parenting books Grin One of my first ever threads on MN was about parenting without punishment at all because the idea seemed very strange but appealing/interesting to me.

I do think confidence plays an absolutely huge part - I don't think it matters very much if you're confident because you know you're bigger and can overpower/outsmart them if you need to, or because you have a sanction up your sleeve, or because you're a generally self-confident person, or because you are experienced, because you have faith in a system you're following or because you have an endless amount of patience and faith in the DC (or probably a million other reasons) but it makes all the difference. If you feel anxious and unsure and like you shouldn't really be asking them to do something they will know and be less likely to trust in you and go along with everything. If you don't feel confident as a parent that's the most important thing to find IME, whether that's taking a course in assertiveness, reading about boundaries, learning a structured discipline approach, valuing your own needs, treating anxiety etc etc.

BertieBotts · 14/11/2022 10:32

Maybe the timeline arrangement is better - because I don't particularly want to imply that any parenting technique is "better" as I think they all have their strengths and weaknesses and suit different people.

FlorettaB · 14/11/2022 10:42

The same approach won’t necessarily work for every child. I would have spent my whole childhood barefoot if it had been an option.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page